Is Session Drummer 3 any better in X1?

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SToons
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2012/07/03 01:00:10 (permalink)

Is Session Drummer 3 any better in X1?

Many of the drum patches in Session 3 as included in Sonar 8.5 are poorly programmed. Poor velocity mapping, poor programming (switching from one velocity level to another, an increment of 1 single velocity step, can produce a snare hit thats over 6dB lower), snares of small velocity changes cutting off previous snare hits in a completely unnatural manner...sheesh. Combined with the fact all modifications have to be done trial-and-error using a text based editor...fixing Steven Slates Old Zep snare alone was a friggin' nightmare. Good sounds, bad programming, crappy antiquated editing platform. What gives? Any improvement?
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    Linear Phase
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    Re:Is Session Drummer 3 any better in X1? 2012/07/03 01:50:18 (permalink)
    Session Drummer needs to have a lot of really well done, excellent sounding content!  It does not.  It just seems like a product, that there isn't much interest in doing anything with..  shame..  I bought the Andy John kit last week...  its amazing.  My favorite drum sounds, of any drum vst's i've got...   that's excellent value right there...

    Platinum Samples assured me, "more kits are on the way."  I sent an email about refreshing the browser, and inquired as to whether they will be formatting the rest of Andy John for Session Drummer.  It seems like a, "no," on Andy John, but, "more kits are on the way."

    You know..  I've got one of these extravagant drum vst's with belles, and whistles, and fx up the wazoo...  it gets no use.  Its in my pile of vst's that are collecting virtual dust! Edit = Moral of the story..   When it comes to drum samplers, romplers, and anything with a library, the content of that library certainly takes precedence of the ability to add bitcrush, or even change the amp envelope of the sample.
    post edited by Linear Phase - 2012/07/03 01:58:57

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    #2
    Beepster
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    Re:Is Session Drummer 3 any better in X1? 2012/07/03 01:57:41 (permalink)
    Meh... it seems like it'll do the job I need it to for now but I'd rather have BFD. I did get a nice real sounding blues beat happening (like I played it myself... but without the really horrible mistakes lol) using the Dry Zep kit and drawing in some automation in the Step Sequencer parameter controls. YMMV.
    #3
    Linear Phase
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    Re:Is Session Drummer 3 any better in X1? 2012/07/03 02:31:14 (permalink)
    The stock kits in BFD are Sonic Reality..  I'm pretty sure.  They are very old, and very familiar.  Actually, I said it in another thread, "Adele's drums sound like the stock kits straight out of BFD."   That's how much, that's been used.

    What's cool about BFD, is the ability to effect the sounds..  Although, if that is what your after, I'd totally suggest Battery, as I think it is a much better program...

    Either way, BFD or Battery, you will certainly be looking for after market content.

    Session Drummer has an advantage over BFD, because Session Drummer simple.  Allowing you to make the mix on Sonar's Mixer, rather than inside Session Drummer.  If you did that with BFD, you'd be ignoring almost every single feature beyond Session Drummer that BFD does have..  And.. erm..  the kits are the same.  and once you ignore the features..  you've got BFsessionDrummer

    BFD is actually, a double edged sword.  It looks pretty, smells pretty, is marketed quite well..  but as with any house of cards..  Arguments for it, fall apart quite easily.  If you don't have it, I certainly wouldn't worry about it too much.

    Yeah..  I'm convinced where Session Drummer is failing, is in its lack of exceptional content!   If the thing had killer content..  wow!

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    #4
    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re:Is Session Drummer 3 any better in X1? 2012/07/03 04:12:23 (permalink)
    BFD comes alive when you start adding expansion packs, though of course, you can get a LOT of mileage from the stock kits.

    What you're also overlooking is the ability to tweak each and every element of a BFD kit piece (Bleed, Trim, Dynamics, Damping etc) and still do all of your mixing inside Sonar.



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    Platinum Samples
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    Re:Is Session Drummer 3 any better in X1? 2012/07/03 05:13:20 (permalink)
    Linear Phase


    Session Drummer needs to have a lot of really well done, excellent sounding content!  It does not.  It just seems like a product, that there isn't much interest in doing anything with..  shame..  I bought the Andy John kit last week...  its amazing.  My favorite drum sounds, of any drum vst's i've got...   that's excellent value right there...

    Platinum Samples assured me, "more kits are on the way."  I sent an email about refreshing the browser, and inquired as to whether they will be formatting the rest of Andy John for Session Drummer.  It seems like a, "no," on Andy John, but, "more kits are on the way."
             What I wrote was:  "We have a bunch of new kits coming real soon…  not from Andy (this time)..  "

             meaning more great content coming soon... but it also doesn't mean we won't release more of Andy's kits later.


             Cheers,


                  Rail

             ------------------------------------

              www.platinumsamples.com




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    #6
    Linear Phase
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    Re:Is Session Drummer 3 any better in X1? 2012/07/03 10:45:02 (permalink)
    OH never mind me......  I can't read..   Rail..  Thank you!  Sounds good.
    post edited by Linear Phase - 2012/07/03 11:05:21

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    synkrotron
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    Re:Is Session Drummer 3 any better in X1? 2012/07/03 10:52:58 (permalink)
    I see that there is now a Neil Peart expansion pack for SD3. I'm a big Peart fan (through his work with Rush). But I also use Battery, and I'm wondering whether or not I should "invest" in SD3 expansions. I suppose I could use both B3 and SD3...

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    #8
    Linear Phase
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    Re:Is Session Drummer 3 any better in X1? 2012/07/03 10:54:03 (permalink)
    Bristol_Jonesey

    What you're also overlooking is the ability to tweak each and every element of a BFD kit piece (Bleed, Trim, Dynamics, Damping etc) and still do all of your mixing inside Sonar. 

    Well thats true..   BFD has all that, making it the premiere drum vst I reckon.  Unless the toontracks may do that stuff as well.  I guess the realism that can be faked with those features is truly amazing.....   yeah, I probably didn't give that stuff enough credit

    synkrotron


    I see that there is now a Neil Peart expansion pack for SD3. I'm a big Peart fan (through his work with Rush). But I also use Battery, and I'm wondering whether or not I should "invest" in SD3 expansions. I suppose I could use both B3 and SD3... 
    I would go for it, simply because drums are one of those things where you can almost have endless kits, if the samples are quality, and you like their sound....



    Edit =  I just looked at the Session Drum Web Store Page.   I have to tell you, the DSF Kits I'm passing on.   I checked the audios demos, and I wasn't too impressed.  The Neil Pert kit, I don't recall listening too ( I know that is Sonic Reality ).  The Platinum Samples stuff is really good, if you haven't gotten it yet.


    I was really hoping the DSF kits sounded a lot better than they actually did.  Thats one thing where Native-Instruments has really excelled..  Not only do they make excellent software, they are providing top notch factory content.  I'm not a synthesizer preset guy, but Native-Instrument vst's have really well done patches.  The Kontakt and Battery libraries are really big and full of usable stuff.

    But Battery does not sample multiple layers.  IIRC, or does version 3?  I've only checked out v2..  like 6 years ago.



    Edit again = Another thing to watch out for though, especially if you are software company, is focusing too much on the content.  Its really hard to balance all that, and I think Ableton has tried to take a page out of the NI Playbook and failed.  But Cakewalk is succeeding where the Dim Pro content is fabulous..  I wish there was more!  omg, I can go on forever with these thoughts...

    I could just, edit, and edit, and edit..  cause I have so many feelings and thoughts on content, how to provide it, what is good content, what is bad content, what is not working, etc, etc...
    post edited by Linear Phase - 2012/07/03 11:40:37

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    g_randybrown
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    Re:Is Session Drummer 3 any better in X1? 2012/07/03 14:36:05 (permalink)
    Platinum Samples


    Linear Phase


    Session Drummer needs to have a lot of really well done, excellent sounding content!  It does not.  It just seems like a product, that there isn't much interest in doing anything with..  shame..  I bought the Andy John kit last week...  its amazing.  My favorite drum sounds, of any drum vst's i've got...   that's excellent value right there...

    Platinum Samples assured me, "more kits are on the way."  I sent an email about refreshing the browser, and inquired as to whether they will be formatting the rest of Andy John for Session Drummer.  It seems like a, "no," on Andy John, but, "more kits are on the way."
             What I wrote was:  "We have a bunch of new kits coming real soon…  not from Andy (this time)..  "

             meaning more great content coming soon... but it also doesn't mean we won't release more of Andy's kits later.


             Cheers,


                  Rail

             ------------------------------------

              www.platinumsamples.com
    Fantastic, have you set the price(s) yet?


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    #10
    synkrotron
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    Re:Is Session Drummer 3 any better in X1? 2012/07/03 15:12:11 (permalink)
    Linear Phase
    But Battery does not sample multiple layers.  IIRC, or does version 3?  I've only checked out v2..  like 6 years ago. 

    I'm in danger of showing myself up for being the noob that I am here, but I think that Battery 3 does do the multiple layer thing. Not on all of the kits, but there are a few that play more than one sample per hit/MIDI note, if you know what I mean. For instance, there is a multi mic kit, and if you hit the kick or snare, more than one sound is played. And I don't mean for different velocities, but for each velocity level.


    Is that classed as multiple layers?




    That Neil Peart kit is a bit out of my budget at the moment, having just shelled out for a pile of new hardware and software, but I'll add it to my list of nice to have's ;^)

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    Platinum Samples
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    Re:Is Session Drummer 3 any better in X1? 2012/07/03 16:34:59 (permalink)
    g_randybrown


    Platinum Samples


    Linear Phase


    Session Drummer needs to have a lot of really well done, excellent sounding content!  It does not.  It just seems like a product, that there isn't much interest in doing anything with..  shame..  I bought the Andy John kit last week...  its amazing.  My favorite drum sounds, of any drum vst's i've got...   that's excellent value right there...

    Platinum Samples assured me, "more kits are on the way."  I sent an email about refreshing the browser, and inquired as to whether they will be formatting the rest of Andy John for Session Drummer.  It seems like a, "no," on Andy John, but, "more kits are on the way."
             What I wrote was:  "We have a bunch of new kits coming real soon…  not from Andy (this time)..  "

            meaning more great content coming soon... but it also doesn't mean we won't release more of Andy's kits later.


            Cheers,


                 Rail

            ------------------------------------

             www.platinumsamples.com
    Fantastic, have you set the price(s) yet?

    $39.95 list price for the Joe Barresi (Tool, QOTSA, Soundgarden) & Jim Scott (Tom Petty, RHCP, Foo Fighters) kits...  There are another 2 kits available for $39.95 each or together for a reduced price (bundle price to be determined).

    We may do another Andy Kit to round out the new releases. 

    Here's a teaser... release date TBD...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9quuzW1wCw

    Thanks,

        Rail
    -----------------------------
    www.platinumsamples.com


    post edited by Platinum Samples - 2012/07/03 16:44:45
    #12
    chuckebaby
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    Re:Is Session Drummer 3 any better in X1? 2012/07/03 16:52:54 (permalink)
    I'm not sure what you mean by fixing velocities. And the piano roll you can fix a velocities very easily. Session drummer three hasn't really changed much since the previous version.
    But I happen to find session drummer three very easy to work with I do most of my editing in the piano roll it's a great tool and you should get used to.

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    #13
    SToons
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    Re:Is Session Drummer 3 any better in X1? 2012/07/03 19:24:11 (permalink)
    chuckebaby


    I'm not sure what you mean by fixing velocities. And the piano roll you can fix a velocities very easily. Session drummer three hasn't really changed much since the previous version.
    But I happen to find session drummer three very easy to work with I do most of my editing in the piano roll it's a great tool and you should get used to.


    I'll post a specific example later. Many people just don't "hear" things the same and of course there is likely discrepancy concerning how one would expect the samples to react but then there is just plain poor programming. I'll give you a quick example though. The "Ultra soft" sample layer is mapped to a velocity range of something like 0-26. Go program a hit at a velocity of 85 followed by a hit of 25 and listen to what happens. Not pretty. A fairly wide piece of the dynamic range is functionally not useable, simple as that. Not much point in having 5 velocity layers if 2 are almost unuseable and the volume steps between the three functioning layers are so abrubt as to sound comical.
    #14
    cclarry
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    Re:Is Session Drummer 3 any better in X1? 2012/07/03 19:39:27 (permalink)
    Session Drummer 3 is definitely usable...if you do the work..

    I'm an Addictive Drums fanboy...

    I have all of the big ones...and I just seem to always go
    back to AD.....they just "sound" better to me...

    and they LOAD fast, the host is more stable then the others, and
    they are pretty tweakable...not quite as much as the others..
    but....I can get what I want out of them pretty quickly....

    That's my 2 cents worth....


    #15
    mudgel
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    Re:Is Session Drummer 3 any better in X1? 2012/07/03 19:55:56 (permalink)
    BFD is the only one i dont have.

    Give me Toontracks' Superior Drummer 2 any day 'cause its.. well ...superior.

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    Bub
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    Re:Is Session Drummer 3 any better in X1? 2012/07/03 20:01:11 (permalink)
    I'm still waiting for a dedicated snare synth program.

    *sIgH*

    I like Session Drummer. Paired with the Percussion 64 plugin, it can't be beat IMO. You can create your own drum kits by drag and drop, X1 comes with templates with all the individual audio outputs setup for you already. Use it with the Step Sequencer and it's great.

    FYI ... if anyone is looking for a poor mans MIDI drum rig ... there is some freeware software out there that lets you hook up those cheesy Rock Band drums to Sonar. You have to go back in and tweak velocities sometimes ... but it's easy with the draw tool. It adds a level of realism that you just can't get with the offset and swing of the step sequencer.



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    SToons
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    Re:Is Session Drummer 3 any better in X1? 2012/07/03 22:08:42 (permalink)
    cclarry


    Session Drummer 3 is definitely usable...if you do the work.. 
    It doesn't how much work you do when something is "broken". If patches are programmed well then they "work". If the programming is caca then the results are the same. What you define as useable may not be the same for me. Illogical uncontrollable leaps of volume do not qualify as  "useable" let alone "musical" in my opinion.

    #18
    SToons
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    Re:Is Session Drummer 3 any better in X1? 2012/07/03 22:12:40 (permalink)
    Bub


    You can create your own drum kits by drag and drop
    Yeah. Lame one-sample-per-drum kits with no velocity mapping. Yay. You can't create multi-velocity regions without using a text editor and "programming" using text. Lame again...
    But seriously, the interface looks pretty.
    #19
    stratman70
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    Re:Is Session Drummer 3 any better in X1? 2012/07/03 23:02:33 (permalink)
    I have a bunch also. Used to use Sess Drum 3 a lot, but EZ Drummer took the simple spot-Got it for dirt cheap w/4 exp packs a while back.
    But now I have SSDrum Sampler (Steven Slate) and I will never look anywhere else. I had the EX 3 for a while which used Kontakt. 4.0 Platinum was a $99 investment coupon special and I am so glad I did that. Think I got the coupon  because I owned 3.0 &4.0 EX versions of SSD's. 4.0 EXC probably would have done all I need but the $99 was too good to pass up.
    They are great sounding drums. They have the bells and whistles but I find I really don'rt need them all that much 100 plus kits-yikes. like I'll use all those.
     
    Great samples and great sampler.
     
    I have not touched Sess drum in ages. If I want something quick it's EZ drummer classic or nashville.

     
     
    #20
    SToons
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    Re:Is Session Drummer 3 any better in X1? 2012/07/03 23:46:21 (permalink)
    stratman70


    I have a bunch also. Used to use Sess Drum 3 a lot, but EZ Drummer took the simple spot-Got it for dirt cheap w/4 exp packs a while back.
    But now I have SSDrum Sampler (Steven Slate) and I will never look anywhere else. I had the EX 3 for a while which used Kontakt. 4.0 Platinum was a $99 investment coupon special and I am so glad I did that. Think I got the coupon  because I owned 3.0 &4.0 EX versions of SSD's. 4.0 EXC probably would have done all I need but the $99 was too good to pass up.
    They are great sounding drums. They have the bells and whistles but I find I really don'rt need them all that much 100 plus kits-yikes. like I'll use all those.
     
    Great samples and great sampler.
     
    I have not touched Sess drum in ages. If I want something quick it's EZ drummer classic or nashville.


    No question those Steven Slate drums sound great. That's one of the reasons it's so frustrating to see them mangled in Session Drummer 3. For $99 I'd be all over those. I do hope the programming is better though!
    #21
    SToons
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    Re:Is Session Drummer 3 any better in X1? 2012/07/04 01:18:41 (permalink)
    I started a new thread, Session Drummer 3 - The Problem Of Poor Editing/Programming , to explain some of the issues I find problematic when using Session Drummer 3.
    #22
    stratman70
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    Re:Is Session Drummer 3 any better in X1? 2012/07/04 08:07:37 (permalink)
    SToons


    stratman70


    I have a bunch also. Used to use Sess Drum 3 a lot, but EZ Drummer took the simple spot-Got it for dirt cheap w/4 exp packs a while back.
    But now I have SSDrum Sampler (Steven Slate) and I will never look anywhere else. I had the EX 3 for a while which used Kontakt. 4.0 Platinum was a $99 investment coupon special and I am so glad I did that. Think I got the coupon  because I owned 3.0 &4.0 EX versions of SSD's. 4.0 EXC probably would have done all I need but the $99 was too good to pass up.
    They are great sounding drums. They have the bells and whistles but I find I really don'rt need them all that much 100 plus kits-yikes. like I'll use all those.
     
    Great samples and great sampler.
     
    I have not touched Sess drum in ages. If I want something quick it's EZ drummer classic or nashville.

    Well the Steven Slate sampler is great-no need for Kontakt or any other host. And the options (if you want) are trememndous and plentiful. Regular they are $249. Just great stuff
    No question those Steven Slate drums sound great. That's one of the reasons it's so frustrating to see them mangled in Session Drummer 3. For $99 I'd be all over those. I do hope the programming is better though!



     
     
    #23
    g_randybrown
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    Re:Is Session Drummer 3 any better in X1? 2012/07/04 08:38:18 (permalink)
    Platinum Samples


    g_randybrown


    Platinum Samples


    Linear Phase


    Session Drummer needs to have a lot of really well done, excellent sounding content!  It does not.  It just seems like a product, that there isn't much interest in doing anything with..  shame..  I bought the Andy John kit last week...  its amazing.  My favorite drum sounds, of any drum vst's i've got...   that's excellent value right there...

    Platinum Samples assured me, "more kits are on the way."  I sent an email about refreshing the browser, and inquired as to whether they will be formatting the rest of Andy John for Session Drummer.  It seems like a, "no," on Andy John, but, "more kits are on the way."
             What I wrote was:  "We have a bunch of new kits coming real soon…  not from Andy (this time)..  "

           meaning more great content coming soon... but it also doesn't mean we won't release more of Andy's kits later.


           Cheers,


                Rail

           ------------------------------------

            www.platinumsamples.com
    Fantastic, have you set the price(s) yet?

    $39.95 list price for the Joe Barresi (Tool, QOTSA, Soundgarden) & Jim Scott (Tom Petty, RHCP, Foo Fighters) kits...  There are another 2 kits available for $39.95 each or together for a reduced price (bundle price to be determined).

    We may do another Andy Kit to round out the new releases. 

    Here's a teaser... release date TBD...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9quuzW1wCw

    Thanks,

       Rail
    -----------------------------
    www.platinumsamples.com

    Sheesh....those don't sound like any SD3 kits I've ever heard...very full and rich...I'm guessing these aren't just one or 2 samples per piece!
    Thanks,
    Randy

    G. Randy Brown 
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