Jonbouy
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New EU judgement on software licenses.
I did initially post something about this in the Coffee House. There is a new judgement that has been found against Oracle which may affect the long term implications enabling the sale of previously 'non-transferable' software licenses that could have an impact globally. The first MI vendors I have found to fall in line are DiscoDSP Check their new policy re license transfer after sale. An author of software cannot oppose the resale of his used licences allowing the use of his programs downloaded from the internet as stated at Court of Justice of the European Union Press Release 94/12. http://www.discodsp.com/faq/ In the short-term it's probably good news for consumers, in the long term it could mean different licensing terms issued by vendors and thus bad news for consumers. Either way it's likely to be big news among software developers in the coming months, and maybe a glut of now perfectly legitimate 2nd hand software for sale in the EU at least. The full PDF of the actual press release is here. http://curia.europa.eu/jc...2012-07/cp120094en.pdf
post edited by Jonbouy - 2012/07/03 21:34:12
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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ohgrant
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Re:New EU judgement on software licenses.
2012/07/03 22:26:50
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Sounds like a fair law to me to be sure. I believe software should be the same as hardware. I read EULA sometimes and to be honest they all pretty much sound the same to me. The jist of it is you really own nothing and you are just renting the ability to use their software. I believe software should be under the same guidelines as hardware IMO. If I buy a toaster I can sell it if I choose. Should be no different for software.
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cclarry
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Re:New EU judgement on software licenses.
2012/07/03 22:38:17
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ohgrant Sounds like a fair law to me to be sure. I believe software should be the same as hardware. I read EULA sometimes and to be honest they all pretty much sound the same to me. The jist of it is you really own nothing and you are just renting the ability to use their software. I believe software should be under the same guidelines as hardware IMO. If I buy a toaster I can sell it if I choose. Should be no different for software. I completely agree with this...once I've bought the license...I own it...and should be able to sell (transfer) it to whomever I choose. Piracy is always going to exist....laws are made to protect criminals - because honest people really don't need them...so that's really a very poor excuse on the part of the vendor... Software is a commodity...and should be treated as such....if you buy it...you should have the right to trade it or sell it as you see fit....
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backwoods
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Re:New EU judgement on software licenses.
2012/07/03 22:58:13
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Thanks for the link Jonbouy. Cakewalk may need to introduce "the dongle" ala Propellerheads and Steinberg. If I was a software developer I wouldn't pay much heed to the court's opinion that "the original acquirer of a tangible or intangible copy of a computer program for which the copyright holder’s right of distribution is exhausted must make the copy downloaded onto his own computer unusable at the time of resale." A dongle makes it enforceable.
post edited by backwoods - 2012/07/03 23:07:36
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Jonbouy
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Re:New EU judgement on software licenses.
2012/07/04 02:34:39
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backwoods Thanks for the link Jonbouy. Cakewalk may need to introduce "the dongle" ala Propellerheads and Steinberg. If I was a software developer I wouldn't pay much heed to the court's opinion that "the original acquirer of a tangible or intangible copy of a computer program for which the copyright holder’s right of distribution is exhausted must make the copy downloaded onto his own computer unusable at the time of resale." A dongle makes it enforceable. ??? This has nothing to do with copy-protection or anti-piracy. This judgement says software vendors cannot refuse the transfer of a sold license you own to anyone that you decide to sell it to. Propellerheads unlike many others have always made their licenses transferable and have never tried to levy a fee for that. It essentially enforces all software companies that don't currently allow that transfer to behave in the same way. Selling pirate copies of software is as illegal as it has always been. This is to stop vendors preventing the resale of something they've sold to you or even charging for the transfer of the license you originally purchased. This isn't merely the courts 'opinion' that you can pay no heed to, it is a judgement that has already been passed that means if you are a software developer that tries to oppose the resale of something you've already sold then you will be breaking the law. As I say it's law in the EU but it is likely to have wider consequences when you consider that for example Europeans could have the ability to sell their used copies of Sonar legally (regardless of what Cakewalk's EULA may currently state) and the rest of the world can't.
post edited by Jonbouy - 2012/07/04 02:39:04
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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backwoods
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Re:New EU judgement on software licenses.
2012/07/04 04:04:47
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Sorry JonBouy but you are dead wrong about Propellerheads. Rack extensions are not transferable. Neither are downloaded refills " Prior to downloading, as part of the download process, you may (depending on what ReFill you're buying) be required to accept a user agreement. Please note that there is no 30 day return policy on downloadable products and that ownership can not be transferred to another person. " For software vendors it has EVERYTHING to do with copy protection and piracy. Propellerheads uses a dongle, so does Steinberg. Why do you think that is JonBouy? Steinberg happily allows license transfer BECAUSE OF THE DONGLE.
post edited by backwoods - 2012/07/04 07:41:28
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Jonbouy
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Re:New EU judgement on software licenses.
2012/07/04 08:18:20
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backwoods Sorry JonBouy but you are dead wrong about Propellerheads. Rack extensions are not transferable. Neither are downloaded refills " Prior to downloading, as part of the download process, you may (depending on what ReFill you're buying) be required to accept a user agreement. Please note that there is no 30 day return policy on downloadable products and that ownership can not be transferred to another person. " For software vendors it has EVERYTHING to do with copy protection and piracy. Propellerheads uses a dongle, so does Steinberg. Why do you think that is JonBouy? Steinberg happily allows license transfer BECAUSE OF THE DONGLE. Erm, no I ain't. Propellerheads have tried to launch RE's in the last 2 weeks with non-transferable licenses, now they have to think again on that one. Refills are soundware and very few licenses there have ever been transferable, that will have to change too now. I've sold a Reason license before they even thought of the Codemeter stick they approved the license transfer themselves and have never charged for it. I did that because I wanted to start my license afresh and the difference between selling V4 and buying R5/Record duo was a better deal to me at the time than a straight upgrade from 4 to 5. No complaints, no fuss, no charge from the Props the license was indeed transferable as I actually did it way back then. This isn't to do with copy protection because quite simply whether the license is protected by dongle, serial number or masonic handshake it doesn't matter the original vendor now HAS to honour the transfer in the EU regardless. If you sell me a license for software it is now completely legal for me to sell that on. Period. Tell me what aspects of any of that you are still having trouble understanding and I will try and find a picture instead if that will help.
post edited by Jonbouy - 2012/07/04 08:33:45
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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agape
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Re:New EU judgement on software licenses.
2012/07/04 13:10:56
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Thie is going to be interesting. It may be good for the consumer for a while, but in the end may be a major headache to us all. One area I do not think this is going to apply to is virtual instruments such as the ones I mostly use. The ruling as I understand it applies to software but in VI's you are buying 2 things- 1. Software and then 2. sound recordings. You have in essence two things here, one covered under the ruling and then one that is not covered in the ruling. The ruling has nothing to do with sound recordings which is what samples are. There is some seriously hot debate going on other places right now. The danger I see is that this is going to drive prices up and perhaps make developers increase security on their products.
SOFTWARE- Sonar 8.5, EWQL SYMPHONIC ORCHESTRA, EWQL SYMPHONIC CHOIRS, GYPSY, STORM DRUM 2, MINISTRY OF ROCK, VOICES OF PASSION, GOLIATH, THE DARK SIDE, RA, HOLLYWOOD STRINGS, HOLLYWOOD BRASS, QL SPACES, HOLLYWOODWINDS, DEEP PERCUSSION BEDS, ARPEGGIO, EZ DRUMMER, Vivace, HIPP, Orchestral String Runs 2, Evolution Acoustic Guitar, EWQL Solo Violin, EZDrummer, EZKeys, Cineorch
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Jonbouy
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Re:New EU judgement on software licenses.
2012/07/04 15:27:44
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It may be good for the consumer for a while, but in the end may be a major headache to us all. Agreed, I'm thinking subscriptions rather than sales further down the line.
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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backwoods
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Re:New EU judgement on software licenses.
2012/07/04 16:25:32
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"Propellerheads unlike many others have always made their licenses transferable..." Hello. I've pointed out you are dead wrong and you are too arrogant to see it :)
post edited by backwoods - 2012/07/04 16:31:45
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Jonbouy
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Re:New EU judgement on software licenses.
2012/07/04 16:39:26
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backwoods "Propellerheads unlike many others have always made their licenses transferable..." Hello. I've pointed out you are dead wrong and you are too arrogant to see it :) So you keep telling me. http://www.propellerheads...mp;article=buysell_buy
post edited by Jonbouy - 2012/07/04 16:41:14
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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backwoods
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Re:New EU judgement on software licenses.
2012/07/04 16:46:35
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OK- so "Rack extensions" and downloaded "Refills" have always been transferable? Rack extensions are not transferable. Neither are downloaded refills " Prior to downloading, as part of the download process, you may (depending on what ReFill you're buying) be required to accept a user agreement. Please note that there is no 30 day return policy on downloadable products and that ownership can not be transferred to another person. "
post edited by backwoods - 2012/07/04 16:50:12
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Jonbouy
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Re:New EU judgement on software licenses.
2012/07/04 16:54:05
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Did you read the first paragraph I wrote in post #7? Stop trolling for the sake of it please. Take your personal beef with me offline, it's getting too obvious.
post edited by Jonbouy - 2012/07/04 16:55:44
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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backwoods
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Re:New EU judgement on software licenses.
2012/07/04 16:59:37
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"Propellerheads unlike many others have always made their licenses transferable..." "Erm, no I ain't. Propellerheads have tried to launch RE's in the last 2 weeks with non-transferable licenses, now they have to think again on that one. Refills are soundware and very few licenses there have ever been transferable, that will have to change too now. " Trolling eh?
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Jonbouy
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Re:New EU judgement on software licenses.
2012/07/04 17:03:07
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"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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fitzj
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Re:New EU judgement on software licenses.
2012/07/04 20:49:03
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ok so you live in Europe and instead of purchasing the next new release you wait and buy secondhand and you ask cakewalk to re-register and they refuse. What do you do? It would take thousands to take legal action.
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Jonbouy
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Re:New EU judgement on software licenses.
2012/07/05 06:13:21
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fitzj ok so you live in Europe and instead of purchasing the next new release you wait and buy secondhand and you ask cakewalk to re-register and they refuse. What do you do? It would take thousands to take legal action. It's not ambiguous at all. "An author of software cannot oppose the resale of his ‘used’ licences allowing the use of his programs downloaded from the internet" Quite simply they'd be breaking the law. Will they want to be seen to be doing that? It's the law that says it's illegal if I steal a car, instead of flouting that law most people just comply, if they don't there will be consequences. Most people would rather not steal the car than find out what happens if they try it. Same here. Given that it was a company the size of Oracle that brought this case and lost I can't see many companies wanting to take the risk. This is also why I see it creating waves worldwide outside of Europe. If you have companies that are trading internationally then those not living in the EU are going to be pretty miffed if their European counterparts have resale value in their software and the rest of the customers don't I do however see in the long-term, license agreements changing to reflect this which may indeed end up being an even worse deal for the end user. Time will tell.
post edited by Jonbouy - 2012/07/05 06:17:38
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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DaveClark
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Re:New EU judgement on software licenses.
2012/07/05 11:53:26
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Hi all, What a Surprise! Yet another bad decision by a court regarding software.... A lot of folks would like to blur the distinction between physical products and licenses, e.g. to make toasters and software licenses the same, but consider this: You've just married Miss Universe. She's a great cook, great hostess, and your personal life so to speak couldn't be better. She decides that she doesn't want to be married to you any more, so she tries to sell her marriage license to you on eBay. You say that's ridiculous! She says that she could sell a toaster, so why not the marriage license? In a decision, a court agrees with her that you have "exhaused your distribution rights" i.e. that you no longer have a monopoly on deciding whom you will be married to, and she now has the right to distribute it. So she sells it for USD $1 to an 83-year-old homeless woman with serious health problems. You must accept this transfer, according to the court decision. Regards, Dave Clark
post edited by DaveClark - 2012/07/05 12:07:39
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Jonbouy
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Re:New EU judgement on software licenses.
2012/07/05 14:52:13
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Dave, have you ever tried to buy and sell a spouse? There's so much headache involved for so little return I wouldn't bother mate.
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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Jonbouy
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Re:New EU judgement on software licenses.
2012/07/05 14:58:57
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A lot of folks would like to blur the distinction between physical products and licenses, e.g. to make toasters and software licenses the same, Yeah a lot of folk mostly those that sell software licenses. They clearly like the idea they can sell you stuff that doesn't work properly too, yet hardware incorporating software/firmware has to be of merchantable quality rather than sold 'as is'. Why shouldn't they be the same thing rather than being a law unto themselves? Hey my brakes failed, but bless my car manufacturer because it's a complicated bit of kit that must have taken them loads of development time and expense, most of it works OK though so it seems a bit impolite to whine about it... What is this world turning into?
post edited by Jonbouy - 2012/07/05 15:00:12
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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