Mixing devices.

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cychan7570
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2012/07/30 11:42:05 (permalink)

Mixing devices.

Is there a hardware device that we can use for mixing? I mean this hardware should have something like the presets of mixes for R&B and other genre; instruments like drums, bass, piano, etc. I have tried Toontrack EZMix, but I dun think it is very good. Any opinion? Thx.
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    M_Glenn_M
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    Re:Mixing devices. 2012/07/30 12:21:33 (permalink)
    Interesting thought. 
    Sort of a "Do it all for me button"? 
    I'm afraid it might still be just time and experience in the end.


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    konradh
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    Re:Mixing devices. 2012/07/30 13:27:11 (permalink)
    lt would be cool, but I don't know of such a thing.  I usually get a CD that is in a similar style to what I am mixing (and, of course, one I like and think sounds good) and then use it as a reference.  Is my bass louder or quieter?  Are my kick and bass in the same relative level to each other?  Is my mix brigther or less bright?  How do the vocal levels compare? etc.

    What would really be cool would be a software plug-in that was smart enough to analyze the main components of a CD and then set your levels and EQs after you told it which tracks were which.  I can imagine something like that happening in 5 years.   The first step would be an automation tool that would keep things consistent across an album you were mixing.
    #3
    jerrypettit
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    Re:Mixing devices. 2012/07/30 13:41:46 (permalink)
    In addition to EZMix, there is Izotope's Alloy and Nectar, with presets for instruments and vocals respectively.  Izotope's Ozone has presets to get you started with mastering.  

    Har-Bal can help you with EQ-ing after the mix.  Somewhere on the Internet, I've seen comparisons of volume levels for the different genre's, e.g., bass is higher in R&B and metal.

    People mock the solutions above for being "Magic Buttons", but I'm just a hobbyist, I have them all, and they give me a nice "head start" and I think you can learn a lot from seeing what they do.
    #4
    M_Glenn_M
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    Re:Mixing devices. 2012/07/30 14:14:40 (permalink)
    No question that I use the Prochannel and other presets for that concept in a limited way.(No pun)


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    #5
    M_Glenn_M
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    Re:Mixing devices. 2012/07/30 14:22:41 (permalink)
    I'll have a "Hit Record" preset please.
    I remember thinking the architectural CAD program I paid $3500 for was going to to it all for me automatically (and my clients often think it does too). 
    It turned out to be way better and faster than drafting by hand for sure, but certainly no magic bullet.
    There was still mostly a lot of human judgement and experience needed.
    Soon everyone had CAD, the bar was raised and we all needed to design a LOT more homes to earn the same money.


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    #6
    daveny5
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    Re:Mixing devices. 2012/07/30 14:24:20 (permalink)
    Why do you need a hardware device for mixing if you have Sonar? 

    If you're looking to bypass having to learn how to mix and master, you should consider using a studio. 

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    #7
    konradh
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    Re:Mixing devices. 2012/07/30 16:27:22 (permalink)
    As I have said before to much disdain and insult , i think presets are a great way to learn.  You see what the preset sounds like, you learn the purpose of various controls and tweak them to hear the effect, and soon you are capable.  This works best if the presets are not extraordinarily complex.  For example, it would be hard to learn the functions of a compressor from a preset that had two compressors in series with one side-chained.
     
    I don't know the poster's reasons, but I find it much easier and more intutive to mix on a hardware console that dragging faders and turnking knobs with the mouse—although there is certainly nothing wrong with the on-screen approach if you like it.

    I use the hardware console for about 90% of mixing but will click on something if it is right there on the screen but scrolled off the hardware console.  Similarly, I use the hardware transport buttons but if my right hand is busy working on Melodyne or something, my left hand will hit the space bar on my keyboard tray.  Whatever makes sense.
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    Cactus Music
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    Re:Mixing devices. 2012/07/30 16:42:21 (permalink)
    But how could a hardware mixer even start to mix tracks to a certain "sound or style",,, it is lacking the most important tool "ears". How would it begin to know that the bass was to muddy or the snare needed more reverb?? geez...

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    Guitarhacker
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    Re:Mixing devices. 2012/07/30 17:17:34 (permalink)
    Do it in the Box.

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    Pragi
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    Re:Mixing devices. 2012/07/30 17:52:03 (permalink)
    Hi Cychan,
    there are some very useful fx chain presets in Sonar X1 which are giving an idea
    how instruments can  be mixed.The quality of the  included effects is really O.K.
    If you have an idea , how the mix should sound, this is an easy way to get into it, but not
    a tool which is doing all and eyerything. The quality of the effects  of the EZ Mix(Overloud effects) is imo not better than these of Sonar X1.
     A tool that works like you imagine to me hopefully will never be created,cause than all the mixes which are edtited with this tool sound nearly the same, or, what do you think ? 

    Peace ,Pragi   
    post edited by Pragi - 2012/07/30 18:08:06
    #11
    cychan7570
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    Re:Mixing devices. 2012/07/30 19:54:05 (permalink)
    M_Glenn_M: Actually, I can do mixing purely on Sonar X1 Producer without any other extra plug-ins or device. However, I am trying to see if there is any sort of device that can speed things up a little, and perhaps all I need to do after the process done by a device / plug-ins is to fine tune it a bit. Any ideas? Thx. konradh: Thx. That is a good idea of mixing by comparing other track. jerrypettit: Thx. I will check out those softwares. Cactus Music: That is why to me, the ideal mixing tool will be to have a combination of presets mix and human intervention for best outcome. daveny5: Just out of curiosity. If I were to have a studio, is there any device that I can use to automate mixing a little bit? Thx. Pragi: I think the closest thing I can find is the Ableton feature where they make the sound very elastic. Although I am not familiar with Ableton, however, I was hoping that after Ableton process it with the elastic sound, I would love to edit the EQ and Compressor, and other stuff of each track.
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    bapu
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    Re:Mixing devices. 2012/07/30 20:07:42 (permalink)
    konradh

    What would really be cool would be a software plug-in that was smart enough to analyze the main components of a CD and then set your levels and EQs after you told it which tracks were which.  

    Ever heard of Har-Bal? In theory, that's it's purpose. It's not a plugin though. It's stand alone.
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    Crg
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    Re:Mixing devices. 2012/07/30 20:46:16 (permalink)
    The hardware device you're looking for is called a mixer.
    You plug musicians into it, make them do the work and set the style and all you have to do is keep track of it all and push the right buttons and sliders.
    You have to acquire some knowledge of mixing and recording even when you're using samples and loops.

    Craig DuBuc
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    BretB
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    Re:Mixing devices. 2012/07/30 20:54:39 (permalink)
    Go to Staples and get an "Easy" button for $9.95.

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    Guitarhacker
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    Re:Mixing devices. 2012/07/30 21:03:48 (permalink)
    BretB


    Go to Staples and get an "Easy" button for $9.95.


    did the price go up?  It musta gotten harder to do that easy thing for the price to go up....

    I thought it was about $5.... but then again, I never bought one...I always do things the hard way.



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    Michael Five
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    Re:Mixing devices. 2012/07/30 21:06:47 (permalink)
    konradh


    lt would be cool, but I don't know of such a thing.  I usually get a CD that is in a similar style to what I am mixing (and, of course, one I like and think sounds good) and then use it as a reference.  Is my bass louder or quieter?  Are my kick and bass in the same relative level to each other?  Is my mix brigther or less bright?  How do the vocal levels compare? etc.

    What would really be cool would be a software plug-in that was smart enough to analyze the main components of a CD and then set your levels and EQs after you told it which tracks were which.  I can imagine something like that happening in 5 years.   The first step would be an automation tool that would keep things consistent across an album you were mixing.
    I saw some kind of thing from Roland in a magazine the other day, a mix product I think, that was aimed at pulling different things out of a mix, kinda like karaoke, that would be a step in that direction.  I can' recall details or name though...

    To the OP's wish - there are some templates in various places, a good one here from JSaras for Sonar and I suspect others for other products, prolly ez-mix too, that will get you in the ball park. You really do need some ability to refine or extend any kind of preset though



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    bapu
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    Re:Mixing devices. 2012/07/30 21:14:56 (permalink)
    Michael Five


    konradh


    lt would be cool, but I don't know of such a thing.  I usually get a CD that is in a similar style to what I am mixing (and, of course, one I like and think sounds good) and then use it as a reference.  Is my bass louder or quieter?  Are my kick and bass in the same relative level to each other?  Is my mix brigther or less bright?  How do the vocal levels compare? etc.

    What would really be cool would be a software plug-in that was smart enough to analyze the main components of a CD and then set your levels and EQs after you told it which tracks were which.  I can imagine something like that happening in 5 years.   The first step would be an automation tool that would keep things consistent across an album you were mixing.
    I saw some kind of thing from Roland in a magazine the other day, a mix product I think, that was aimed at pulling different things out of a mix, kinda like karaoke, that would be a step in that direction.  I can' recall details or name though...

    To the OP's wish - there are some templates in various places, a good one here from JSaras for Sonar and I suspect others for other products, prolly ez-mix too, that will get you in the ball park. You really do need some ability to refine or extend any kind of preset though

    Michael Five, FYI: the OP said he did not like EZMix. 
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    jerrypettit
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    Re:Mixing devices. 2012/07/30 21:19:26 (permalink)
    @Michael Five:  I think you are talking about a new Roland product called R-Mix, which I got excited about due to the videos and pre-ordered for, as I recall, $199.

    Worst purchase ever.

    I thought it would be able to isolate the various different tracks, but as a practical matter it is only vocals (in the center) that you get any success in manipulating.  Fine for making karaoke, but...that's it.

    I think it was Computer Music magazine that gave it a 6/10 lackluster review.  To me, it was the worst $199 I ever spent.
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    Crg
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    Re:Mixing devices. 2012/07/30 21:21:29 (permalink)
    Of course he doesn't like EZ mix, because... (drumroll) there is no easy mix. Every mix is different and there just isn't a universal mix template.

    Craig DuBuc
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    Michael Five
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    Re:Mixing devices. 2012/07/30 21:25:32 (permalink)
    yeah, that was it jerry - r-mix.  I'm not real surprised at how it panned out, though...



    @bapu, I was just thinking there might be some stuff in a product like ez-mix that would get the OP in the ballpark, closer than starting from scratch.  A source of concepts rather than a solution, maybe?

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    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re:Mixing devices. 2012/07/31 04:14:35 (permalink)
    The trouble with the whole idea is that, as an engineer, you will never ever learn the basics, let alone the advanced stuff.

    Just plug in a preset and tweak a few things? Sorry, that's not mixing, that's not engineering, that's taking the easy way out.

    The only true knowledge anybody gains is by learning the hard way. Make a few mistakes, trial and error, do it again & again, read books, watch videos, absorb knowledge and apply it.

    Anything else is just a cop out.

    In My Opinion

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    Michael Five
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    Re:Mixing devices. 2012/07/31 05:25:35 (permalink)
    Bristol_Jonesey


    The trouble with the whole idea is that, as an engineer, you will never ever learn the basics, let alone the advanced stuff.

    Just plug in a preset and tweak a few things? Sorry, that's not mixing, that's not engineering, that's taking the easy way out.

    The only true knowledge anybody gains is by learning the hard way. Make a few mistakes, trial and error, do it again & again, read books, watch videos, absorb knowledge and apply it.

    Anything else is just a cop out.

    In My Opinion


    all I'm saying, Jonesy, is that you can do the things you say one should - which I agree with - using a template or a preset of some kind as a starting point and still be fine.  Besides, most genres have a fairly standard way of approaching production, and I'd think you want to have your skills down before you start straying from it too much, lest you become the blind squirrel who just stumbles upon the nut, or more likely, just stumbles about. It's whether or not you're trying to learn that matters - trying things, comparing stuff, reading, listening, etc., like you said...

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    Kalle Rantaaho
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    Re:Mixing devices. 2012/07/31 06:36:10 (permalink)
    (Sorry, new Firefox on this lappy.The quote message function doesn't work, neither paragraphing.) Cychan wrote:"I think the closest thing I can find is the Ableton feature where they make the sound very elastic. Although I am not familiar with Ableton, however, I was hoping that after Ableton process it with the elastic sound, I would love to edit the EQ and Compressor, and other stuff of each track." .......................................................................................................................................................................................... That sounds really confusing. In your opinion, what does an audio stretching/pitch shifting tool have to do with mixing? ............................................................................................................................................................................................The basic problem with your request is: The hardware mixer can't know if your bass recording is snappy or muddy, it can not know what kind of a room echo there are in drums, it can't know what kind of microphone was used etc.etc. A software could do some analysis, but those things I mentioned apply to software as well. It seems to me you are so in the beginning of your recording career, that the biggest service you can do to yourself is learning the basics................................................................................................................................................................... As mentioned by the others, Har-Bal is most likely closest to what your looking for. It does not do any mixing, though, neither does it correct any individual instrument sounds, but it creates a frequency balance to a finished mix according to a source track.
    post edited by Kalle Rantaaho - 2012/07/31 06:47:08

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    synkrotron
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    Re:Mixing devices. 2012/07/31 07:31:25 (permalink)
    I'll be the first to admit that I know eff all about "engineering," "tracking" and "mixing."

    But I thought that the first rule in music is, there ain't no rules.

    I just use my own ears and create what I think sounds okay, perhaps using my everyday favourite music as a reference point.

    And in general, I have to agree with everyone here who suggests that there is no quick fix, no "preset" for the mixing process. I use presets, and tweak them, all the time, for things like synth sounds and effects, but when it comes to mixing, you need to put some effort in.

    And that's not even covering such aspects as "what are you using to mix with," cos that's a whole other ball game, and can seriously effect your mix anyway, as I found out the hard way one time.

    Regarding Har-Bal... I've never heard of it, which pretty much gives away my lack of experience, but I've just googled it and it appears to be a "mastering" tool, not a "mixing" tool.

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    konradh
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    Re:Mixing devices. 2012/07/31 10:08:05 (permalink)
    Here is an example of why this is complex:
     
    Yesterday I was working on the final mix of a song I wrote.  It has a rhythm section, some strings, a couple of triple horn lines, accordion, mandolin, sound effects, 20 vocal tracks, etc.  I decided I did not think the bass was sitting right in the mix.  I replaced it with another bass from the same sample library.  This radically changed the bass level, the kick level, and the bass EQ, and caused me to make a minor adjustment to the kick EQ.  I also tweaked the EQ of a guitar track to make more room for the bass.  And keep in mind that I am a lowly songwriter and do not claim to be an expert engineer, but yet I heard the need for all these changes immediately.

    I am not saying that some complex software analysis might not be possible in the near future—hell, polyphonic Melodyne would have been laughable science fiction when I started working in studios—but it would not be simple and at best would give you a starting point. 

    The other issue is that it would become dated.  If you mixed Lady Gaga like early Paula Abdul, it would sound odd.  Or imagine if Benny Blanco produced The Beatles.
    post edited by konradh - 2012/07/31 10:15:53
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    CJaysMusic
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    Re:Mixing devices. 2012/07/31 12:48:12 (permalink)
    Staples makes an EASY button for buying office supplys. Cant we contact the maker of that button and ask him to make one for mixing

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    skylightron
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    Re:Mixing devices. 2012/07/31 18:50:22 (permalink)
    Izotope Alloy would be your best choice but it's software... http://www.izotope.com/products/audio/alloy/
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    Crg
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    Re:Mixing devices. 2012/07/31 19:07:04 (permalink)
    http://www.tcelectronic.com/finalizer96k.asp

    Here's one that's been around for a while. It still doesn't address all the issues you need to address.

    Craig DuBuc
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    tlw
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    Re:Mixing devices. 2012/07/31 19:57:29 (permalink)
    Just out of curiosity. If I were to have a studio, is there any device that I can use to automate mixing a little bit?

     
    As it happens, that particular hardware device is indeed found in most commercial recording studios, most often parked conveniently close to the mixer, racks or coffee machine.
     
    Just so you know, it's generally referred to in the industry as a "sound engineer".

    Sonar Platinum 64bit, Windows 8.1 Pro 64bit, I7 3770K Ivybridge, 16GB Ram, Gigabyte Z77-D3H m/board,
    ATI 7750 graphics+ 1GB RAM, 2xIntel 520 series 220GB SSDs, 1 TB Samsung F3 + 1 TB WD HDDs, Seasonic fanless 460W psu, RME Fireface UFX, Focusrite Octopre.
    Assorted real synths, guitars, mandolins, diatonic accordions, percussion, fx and other stuff.
    #30
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