USB and firewire mixers/interfaces

Sorry if this is stupid. Just been pondering how it all works.

In relation to USB or firewire mixers/interfaces, what is the channel count available? 
IE: I know Adat is limited to 8 channels per pipe. I was wondering is there some guideline for USB and firewire.

In other words, if you have a USB or firewire equipped mixer, how many actual channels from Sonar can be accessed at once on the mixer?

the following are theoretical limits:

USB 1.1 is capable of 8 I/O, full duplex at 44.1kHz/16bit or 5 channels at 44.1kHz/24bit.
USB 2.0 is capable of 226 channels, full duplex at 44.1kHz/24bit
IEEE 1394 (400) is capable of 188 channels full duplex at 44.1kHz/24bit
the higher the sampling rate and/or bit rate the lower the number of full duplex channels you can run (theoretically) thru USB.

caveats: 
1) drivers will determine how many you can actually get without latency or popping/clicking issues
2) USB shares resources with the CPU (where firewire does not) and is more likely to have latency/popping/clicking issues for the same conditions than firewire, all other things being equal.
 
NOTE:  the numbers are FULL I/O.  for example, if you only need 2 channels of output (normal) then you could have 6 channels of input simulatneously playing back with stereo output on USB 1.1 at 44.1/16.  ex 2:  you have 2 stereo outputs, one for mains one for headphones, that takes up 4 of the channels, so only 4 inputs would be available at 44.1/16bit for USB 1.1.

FastBikerBoy
I have a ZED-R16 that is firewire and exposes the 16 channels plus the stereo pair making 18 in/out. Adding in the 8 possible ADAT channels loses the stereo pair giving 24 in/out.

The ZED-R16's i/o channel trade-off is down to A&H's particular design I think, not due to FW's bandwidth limitations. FW400 can handle more than 24 in/out.


For example, at 44.1 or 48kHz 24-bit, M-Audio Profire Lightbridge offers 34 ins (4x ADAT (=32ch) + 1x S/PDIF (=2ch)) and 36 outs (4x ADAT (=32 ch) + 1x S/PDIF (=2ch) + 2x line (=2ch)) simultaneously. Plus 1x MIDI I/O. Presonus Firestudio Lightpipe does 32 in/out (4x ADAT i/o) over FW400 as well. And some outboard FW multi-channel interfaces with onboard digital (DSP) mixers offer more than 24 in/out also.


ZED-R16 is sweet tho!

timidi

Presonus Firestudio Lightpipe does 32 in/out (4x ADAT i/o) over FW400 as well. 

Adat over firewire?? huh?  Adat, to me, is a protocol on each end (mixer/computer) that is connected by a lightpipe cord and delivers 8 in/out per pipe.

Yes, ADAT can carry 8 channels/tracks of 24-bit @44.1/48kHz. Doubling or quadrupling the sampling rate halves/quarters the available channels per ADAT pipe (4 or 2) using SMUX.


PCs and Macs are not equipped with onboard ADAT i/o ports. So some other kind of interfacing (FW/USB/PCI/PCIe/Ethernet) is used in order to interconnect an ADAT-equipped unit (audio interface, AD/DA, mixer) with a PC/Mac.  FW or USB are used as intermediate interfacing  transport protocols in this way.


For example, the RME Digiface is an external box with 3x ADAT i/o and interconnects with a PC/Mac via a host interface card, using a FW physical connection between the external box and host card and a proprietary protocol only used by RME. Yamaha also used a special protocol over FW physical connection (MLan) for digitally interfacing their mixers. Other interfaces use other transport protocols over Ethernet network physical connections for this. It's all just data.

What I'm reaching for is why manufacturers don't make more computer integrated mixer/controllers at a decent price point?

I mean, the audio world we live in is on a computer. As Beagle states, USB2.0 can move 226 channels. So, why is there not a mixer that will handle that? And, when I say mixer, I guess I'm really saying controller. So that, the mixer/controller is just an extension of the DAW.

Seems like most options available are either a "mixer" or a "controller".
I'm wondering if the motorized faders would be the most expensive part for the manufacturers.

Hi Goddard. you said:
"So some other kind of interfacing (FW/USB/PCI/PCIe/Ethernet) is used in order to interconnect an ADAT-equipped unit (audio interface, AD/DA, mixer) with a PC/Mac."

I use an old Panasonic DA7 digital mixer. Adat in/out of mixer to an RME AIO card. Are you telling me that I didn't need the RME card? I could of just got a TX inst firewire card to interface with my mixer.? Ouch...

Yes FBB. I know 16 channels. I meant the "controller" part, which you answered as there is no automation. Re-recording on the same track is an interesting concept. Never thunk of that. I used to do OTB mixes on my DA7 back when I had the RME9652 which supported 16 channels (now I only have 8). I might suggest you try OTB as you might notice some enhanced separation. The GR-24M looks pretty sweet.

I'm still confused about everything.....

timidi


What I'm reaching for is why manufacturers don't make more computer integrated mixer/controllers at a decent price point?

I mean, the audio world we live in is on a computer. As Beagle states, USB2.0 can move 226 channels. So, why is there not a mixer that will handle that? And, when I say mixer, I guess I'm really saying controller. So that, the mixer/controller is just an extension of the DAW.

Seems like most options available are either a "mixer" or a "controller".
I'm wondering if the motorized faders would be the most expensive part for the manufacturers.

Hi Goddard. you said:
"So some other kind of interfacing (FW/USB/PCI/PCIe/Ethernet) is used in order to interconnect an ADAT-equipped unit (audio interface, AD/DA, mixer) with a PC/Mac."

I use an old Panasonic DA7 digital mixer. Adat in/out of mixer to an RME AIO card. Are you telling me that I didn't need the RME card? I could of just got a TX inst firewire card to interface with my mixer.? Ouch...

I'm still confused about everything.....

tmidi, your DA7 (very nice mixers in their day btw) never had any FW  option available for interfacing with external gear, so you have to use ADAT (or TDIF or AES/EBU) i/o cards installed in your DA7 for external digital i/o connections.


So, using an ADAT card in your DA7, then in order to interface your DA7 with a PC you can use a PC card having an ADAT port (best) like your RME AIO, or you can use an  ADAT<>FW interface (2nd  best) like the Profire Lightbridge connected to a FW port in your PC, or use an ADAT<>USB interface (3rd best) connected to a USB port in your PC .

So yes, you do in fact need that RME card for its ADAT i/o ports, because there is no place to plug a FW cable into your DA7. I hope that's clearer to you now.

Now, time for a history lesson.

In the distant past, many manufacturers did offer small computer-integratable mixer/controllers (small digital mixers which could be interfaced with a computer and used as control surfaces for DAW software running on the computer), including Soundcraft, Yamaha, Mackie, Tascam to name just a few. But they were very expensive and few "prosumers" could afford them.

Today, most pro/prosumer audio interfaces include at least some basic onboard digital mixing functionality for routing i/o and monitoring (like RME's TotalMix mixer in your AIO card), as do DAW software programs, and there are a wide variety of control surface options available (some folks use old digital mixers as DAW control surfaces). 

As DAWs became more popular, a few manufacturers (including Cakewalk with Peavey) offered combo audio interface-DAW controller units, but these were fairly basic and did not offer the same functionality as a full-blown digital mixer like your DA7. Other offerings were closer, such as Tascam's FW-18xx.

Then, as computers became more powerful, many of the tasks like compression and EQ and reverb effects for which people had used digital mixers or other outboard processing gear became more feasible "ITB", and as multi-channel preamps, audio interfaces and outboard AD/DA converters became more widely available, the market for smaller digital mixers declined and fewer models were offered. Still used in a lot of places though.

Nowadays, there are a number of analog and analog/digital mixers offered with USB or FW connectivity for computers, like FBB's ZED. And Presonus have intro'd new Studiolive live/recording digi mixers which combine a FW audio interface and 2-way control functionality along with DAW software and i-device remote control.

As well, audio interface manufacturers are starting to offer more capable DSP mixers and fx in outboard audio interfaces, controlled by software running on a connected DAW. 

So perhaps the current trends are moving in different directions.

There are inexpensive multi moving fader DAW/MIDI controllers available from Behringer, and smaller single fader controllers from Presonus and Frontier Designs (wireless). Plus, older moving-fader controllers can be found secondhand (many used MIDI and/or the ubiquitous Mackie protocols, so still-usable). Wireless touch controller apps for DAWs are also becoming popular for iPad.

Ok, end of lesson. Hope you were paying attention.

I'll leave it to FBB to answer your other query about the ZED R16. 
[Edit: Oh, I see FBB has already responded]

Can't say I have but how times have changed.

I have had a couple of smaller A & H mixers in my live rigs over the years but the R16 is my first interface from them.

FastBikerBoy


Can't say I have but how times have changed.

I have had a couple of smaller A & H mixers in my live rigs over the years but the R16 is my first interface from them.

A&H have definitely made some versatile mixers, with nice EQ. There are times I kick myself for ever trading in my Mixwizzer 20:8:2 and then go off hunting for another. No scene automation but could do back flips at the push of a few buttons. The new version is supposed to sound nicer, but they changed the functionality and dropped the 8-bus for some reason.