gogreen
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Edit Note Durations
I work in Finale 2011b with mostly Garritan sounds. I'd like to be able to alter the start and stop times of a score's staves to eliminate or reduce the "midi organ effect." Can I do that in Sonar X1 Essential? Or do I need Studio or Producer to do that? Thanks.
post edited by gogreen - 2012/08/14 19:27:11
Arthur J. Michaels www.arthurjmichaels.com Finale 2000, 2001, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2011b.r2 (currently using 2011b.r2) Core i7 860 @ 2.80 GHz, 8.0 GB RAM, Windows 7 Home Premium x64 SP 1 Sonar X1 Essential Garritan COMB2, Sonatina Symphonic Orchestra Audacity 2.0.1 Dell 2408 WFP, 1920x1200 M-Audio Delta Audiophile 2496 M-Audio Keystation 88es Logitech Z-2300 speaker system AKG K-240 Studio headphones
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Guitarhacker
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Re:Edit Note Durations
2012/08/14 21:27:03
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In midi this is easy.
I work in staff view mostly since I was taught to read music the traditional way.... on a staff.
So in staff view... right click the note. this opens the note properties window and in it you can adjust the start, duration, pitch, velocity and more.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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gogreen
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Re:Edit Note Durations
2012/08/14 22:22:37
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So you're talking about doing this work in Sonar X1 Essential, right?
Arthur J. Michaels www.arthurjmichaels.com Finale 2000, 2001, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2011b.r2 (currently using 2011b.r2) Core i7 860 @ 2.80 GHz, 8.0 GB RAM, Windows 7 Home Premium x64 SP 1 Sonar X1 Essential Garritan COMB2, Sonatina Symphonic Orchestra Audacity 2.0.1 Dell 2408 WFP, 1920x1200 M-Audio Delta Audiophile 2496 M-Audio Keystation 88es Logitech Z-2300 speaker system AKG K-240 Studio headphones
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Loptec
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Re:Edit Note Durations
2012/08/15 01:47:23
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I never work in staff view, but in PRV you can just select the notes you want to change and then (with the smart tool (F5)) place the mouse pointer at the start or the end of any of the notes and drag left or right to change the start/stop time.
All the selected notes will change in the same way
SAMUEL LIDSTRÖM
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Edit Note Durations
2012/08/15 04:35:15
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In my opinion, it's much easier and makes more sense musically to work solely in the PRV to do this type of work.
Reason? Well, I've noticed over the years that with certain soft synths, if you have note lengths which extend right up to the start of the next note Sonar will sometimes "miss" the new Note On message, so I'll drag the end of the first note back, not by much, maybe a few ticks but this guarantees that the first note will finish sounding and a new Note On message will be generated when the sequence reaches the new note.
This type of detailed editing is impossible in the Staff View, where a 1/4 is a 1/4 note and will always be a 1/4 note.
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SToons
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Re:Edit Note Durations
2012/08/15 07:00:36
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Bristol_Jonesey
In my opinion, it's much easier and makes more sense musically to work solely in the PRV to do this type of work.
Reason? Well, I've noticed over the years that with certain soft synths, if you have note lengths which extend right up to the start of the next note Sonar will sometimes "miss" the new Note On message, so I'll drag the end of the first note back, not by much, maybe a few ticks but this guarantees that the first note will finish sounding and a new Note On message will be generated when the sequence reaches the new note.
This type of detailed editing is impossible in the Staff View, where a 1/4 is a 1/4 note and will always be a 1/4 note.
Depends. If you select multiple notes in the staff view of the same duration it's just as easy as the PRV to drag the slider in the Event Inspectors duration box and alter the notes' duration by a few ticks. If they are different duration or to opjust open the Length dialog and enter 99%. If someone is more comfortable in Staff view I wouldn't suggest learning a whole new method is easier than making the odd extra mouse click now and then (or key click if there are Key Bindings). That being said I also learned to read from the day I started playing and I read notation fluently but I still prefer working in the PRV. Arthur, what exactly do you mean by "alter the start and stop times of a score's staves"? So far people are discussing moving individual notes around but I'm curious as to what you specifically mean by this. Staves are not notes so I'm a little confused.
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Guitarhacker
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Re:Edit Note Durations
2012/08/15 08:54:05
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Bristol_Jonesey
In my opinion, it's much easier and makes more sense musically to work solely in the PRV to do this type of work.
Reason? Well, I've noticed over the years that with certain soft synths, if you have note lengths which extend right up to the start of the next note Sonar will sometimes "miss" the new Note On message, so I'll drag the end of the first note back, not by much, maybe a few ticks but this guarantees that the first note will finish sounding and a new Note On message will be generated when the sequence reaches the new note.
This type of detailed editing is impossible in the Staff View, where a 1/4 is a 1/4 note and will always be a 1/4 note.
I have noticed this same thing myself when working in staff.... but it is easily remedied. It happens mostly when I am editing or manually inserting a new note. It never happens when I play the parts in on the keyboard. It will happen there only if I go to edit a wrong note or add a note. Then I must be aware of the overlap principle. In staff, a quarter note doesn't (actually) have to be a quarter to sound like a quarter. well.... let me explain. If you set the note default resolution to quarters, you will get quarters (for manual input only), and if you have one quarter playing the same pitch followed by another exactly the same and they overlap by as much as one tick yes... the off/on signals will get lost. This happens when the snap to grid is turned off..... thus allowing the full quarter note to be placed on the staff exactly where you click, and not necessarily on the beat. It might be 10 ticks past the beat (2:02:010) but to the ear it sounds right, 10 ticks is hard to hear but midi never misses it......BUT... if that occurs, you simply right click to get to note properties and lower the duration number by a few ticks and waa laa, you have the notes sounding properly and when you reduce a note by a few ticks, your ear can not hear that difference. If you prefer to edit in staff or PRV... it really doesn't matter... you can do it from either screen... it just depends on what YOU feel more comfortable working with. PRV may actually have some advantages in that you can draw in envelopes of velocity and a few other things more easily.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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garrigus
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Re:Edit Note Durations
2012/08/15 09:05:24
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Edit Note Durations
2012/08/15 09:21:09
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Hey Scott, you shouldn't be here!!! You should be writing X2........ 
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gogreen
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Re:Edit Note Durations
2012/08/15 09:33:51
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So you're talking about doing this work in Sonar X1 Essential, right? Or can it be done in all its versions? This information would help me decide which Sonar X1 version to purchase. Thanks.
Arthur J. Michaels www.arthurjmichaels.com Finale 2000, 2001, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2011b.r2 (currently using 2011b.r2) Core i7 860 @ 2.80 GHz, 8.0 GB RAM, Windows 7 Home Premium x64 SP 1 Sonar X1 Essential Garritan COMB2, Sonatina Symphonic Orchestra Audacity 2.0.1 Dell 2408 WFP, 1920x1200 M-Audio Delta Audiophile 2496 M-Audio Keystation 88es Logitech Z-2300 speaker system AKG K-240 Studio headphones
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konradh
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Re:Edit Note Durations
2012/08/15 09:47:00
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If you want to edit a lot of notes, I recommend you use Process | Find/Change. This is much faster and works in Staff View as well as anywhere else.
This example, for simplicity, assumes you have a resolution of 120 ticks per quarter, but it will work with any resolution as long as you know how many ticks are in the longest and shortest note. it also assumes you have quantized durations.
• In this example, pretend you are editing half notes (240 ticks), quarter notes (120 ticks), eighth notes (60 ticks), and sixteenth notes (30 ticks). Assume you want to shorten the notes by 2 ticks.
• Select the range you want to change.
• Go to Process | Find/Change. Click ALL on the first screen. Then enter 30 and 240 in the two duration boxes. (You will need to precede the numbers with 0 and space, like 0 30, to make sure you get ticks and not beats).
• On the second screen Click ALL and then enter 28 and 238 in the duration boxes to shorten all the values by 2 ticks.
Find/Change used to be called Interpolate which is a more accurate description of how this works since it edits intermediate values proportionally. You will be amazed what you can do with this function: change crescendos/decresendos, scale pitch wheel movements, edit velocities, and many other things.
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garrigus
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Re:Edit Note Durations
2012/08/15 11:25:33
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Loptec
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Re:Edit Note Durations
2012/08/15 11:41:25
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gogreen
So you're talking about doing this work in Sonar X1 Essential, right? Or can it be done in all its versions? This information would help me decide which Sonar X1 version to purchase. Thanks.
the midi editing is the same in all versions of Sonar X1
SAMUEL LIDSTRÖM
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gogreen
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Re:Edit Note Durations
2012/08/15 12:05:28
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Arthur J. Michaels www.arthurjmichaels.com Finale 2000, 2001, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2011b.r2 (currently using 2011b.r2) Core i7 860 @ 2.80 GHz, 8.0 GB RAM, Windows 7 Home Premium x64 SP 1 Sonar X1 Essential Garritan COMB2, Sonatina Symphonic Orchestra Audacity 2.0.1 Dell 2408 WFP, 1920x1200 M-Audio Delta Audiophile 2496 M-Audio Keystation 88es Logitech Z-2300 speaker system AKG K-240 Studio headphones
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gogreen
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Re:Edit Note Durations
2012/08/16 12:24:46
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To SToons: I work primarily in Finale in concert band scores with Garritan sounds. Digital preciseness of instruments' start and stop times creates what's been described as "midi organ effect." To make playback sound more real, I want to alter each instrument's start and stop times in various passages. Of course, musicians in real ensembles start and stop together according to our hearing, but rarely is it ever digitally precise. Timbre and pitch differences also affect the outcome. The problem seems to be more profound in Garritan Concert & Marching Band sounds than in other Garritan libraries. My initial concern was whether this work could be done in Sonar X1 Essentials. Apparently, midi effects editing is the same in all Sonar products. I'd like to know how to accomplish this task (start and stop times) in Sonar, although I'm guessing there are several ways to accomplish the same thing. I apologize if this question seems naive, and even laughable, to some. But Sonar and DAWs are a new world to me. Thanks.
Arthur J. Michaels www.arthurjmichaels.com Finale 2000, 2001, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2011b.r2 (currently using 2011b.r2) Core i7 860 @ 2.80 GHz, 8.0 GB RAM, Windows 7 Home Premium x64 SP 1 Sonar X1 Essential Garritan COMB2, Sonatina Symphonic Orchestra Audacity 2.0.1 Dell 2408 WFP, 1920x1200 M-Audio Delta Audiophile 2496 M-Audio Keystation 88es Logitech Z-2300 speaker system AKG K-240 Studio headphones
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Edit Note Durations
2012/08/16 14:30:39
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One way is to go into the PRV, one track at a time, disable Snap and just nudge a few notes either side of the bar line, but not in a completely random fashion, make your adjustments more consistent, ans this is what would really be happening if a trumpet player was lagging a few ticks off the beat.
Sooo... using that as a premise, you can simplify the task by grabbing a selection of notes (in time and note value) and moving them en masse.
Again you need to introduce variation and it wouldn't sound at all natural if this idea was carried throughout the complete length of a track. Split it up.
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konradh
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Re:Edit Note Durations
2012/08/16 15:29:33
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One thing I always notice when listening to high school band and orchestra concerts is that the beginnings of passages do not start together. You can hear all the players easing into the notes at different times. In professional symphonies, this is much less of a problem. My point is that people used to work very hard in studios to get timing tight: multiple takes, click tracks, etc. Then, as soon as drum machines provided tight timing, some people start working to make it sloppier and more "human-sounding." Yet, if a DAW or sequenced keyboard has latency or buffer issues that makes timing loose, suddenly that's a problem again.  I try to make everything on time. If the passage is legato, I only break the legato between phrases. But to each his own.
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bmdaustin
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Re:Edit Note Durations
2012/08/16 17:00:21
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A real easy way to accomplish the OP's task is to (in Track View) Cntrl+A (select all) and then quantize to the appropriate value for the score and set the quantize value to somewhere between 90-95% (depending on tempo) and click on Audition. This will randomize the note-on events (aka attacks) in a very user-controllable fashion and can easily be undone and redone.
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gogreen
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Re:Edit Note Durations
2012/08/16 17:15:09
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Thanks for the great suggestions! I'm getting some really good ideas here!
Arthur J. Michaels www.arthurjmichaels.com Finale 2000, 2001, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2011b.r2 (currently using 2011b.r2) Core i7 860 @ 2.80 GHz, 8.0 GB RAM, Windows 7 Home Premium x64 SP 1 Sonar X1 Essential Garritan COMB2, Sonatina Symphonic Orchestra Audacity 2.0.1 Dell 2408 WFP, 1920x1200 M-Audio Delta Audiophile 2496 M-Audio Keystation 88es Logitech Z-2300 speaker system AKG K-240 Studio headphones
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SToons
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Re:Edit Note Durations
2012/08/17 00:12:03
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gogreen
To SToons: I work primarily in Finale in concert band scores with Garritan sounds. Digital preciseness of instruments' start and stop times creates what's been described as "midi organ effect." To make playback sound more real, I want to alter each instrument's start and stop times in various passages. Of course, musicians in real ensembles start and stop together according to our hearing, but rarely is it ever digitally precise. Timbre and pitch differences also affect the outcome. The problem seems to be more profound in Garritan Concert & Marching Band sounds than in other Garritan libraries. My initial concern was whether this work could be done in Sonar X1 Essentials. Apparently, midi effects editing is the same in all Sonar products. I'd like to know how to accomplish this task (start and stop times) in Sonar, although I'm guessing there are several ways to accomplish the same thing. I apologize if this question seems naive, and even laughable, to some. But Sonar and DAWs are a new world to me. Thanks.
So I guess the question is do you already have Sonar or are you testing the waters before purchase. My assumption here is that you are (or would be) exporting as a MIDI file and then loading into Sonar. Each stave would now have it's own Track, in other words each stave will be seperate alowing for easier editing. There is nothing in Producer or Expanded that will make editing easier as the MIDI editing capablities are virtually identical (someone correct me if I'm wrong). The more expensive versions just come with more stuff - more audio effects, more sample libraries, ability to add (paid for) expansion modules (they do release the odd free one). There is no question this is easy in Sonar depending on how you want to approach it. For example do you want to stagger just the beginning of phrases or do you want to offset the whole track (stave/instrument). So you could select an entire track and then "Slide" the track a few ticks which might be a fraction of a second. There are also CAL routines, for example, which would allow you to Randomize each note by a few ticks forwards, backwards or a combination; this can also help "humanize' the tracks.
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SToons
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Re:Edit Note Durations
2012/08/17 00:24:05
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bmdaustin
A real easy way to accomplish the OP's task is to (in Track View) Cntrl+A (select all) and then quantize to the appropriate value for the score and set the quantize value to somewhere between 90-95% (depending on tempo) and click on Audition. This will randomize the note-on events (aka attacks) in a very user-controllable fashion and can easily be undone and redone.
Yes and no, unless X1's quantize feature is different than all other versions of Sonar. If the OP is entering the notes into Finale with a mouse as opposed to playing them via a MIDI controller/keyboard then they are already 100% quantized. Moving the notes 90% closer to the beat will have no effect - the notes are already on beats or fractions of beats (eighths, sixteenths etc.). If you apply a CAL like Randomize or Humanize and the results are a little too extreme/erratic, or if a MIDI part has been performed and recorded in realtime so it is not already quantized then quantizing a percentage closer to the beat as opposed to a full quantize would be useful. Don't forget, the OP's problem is that the timing of the notes is already too perfect (quantized) as referenced in post #15. Quantizing 90% closer will not "de-quantize" the notes as the OP would like to do.
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gogreen
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Re:Edit Note Durations
2012/08/17 10:08:07
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Well-said, SToons. Thank you. That is exactly what I want to do. Actually, I will experiment with staggering various phrases in various staves (tracks), and offsetting entire staves through a work. CAL routines sounds even better--that sounds as if it would be closer to what humans do. All this experimentation starts Tuesday, when I receive Sonar. I'll be eagerly waiting at the door for UPS. Reminds me of "Wells Fargo Wagon" from The Music Man.
Arthur J. Michaels www.arthurjmichaels.com Finale 2000, 2001, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2011b.r2 (currently using 2011b.r2) Core i7 860 @ 2.80 GHz, 8.0 GB RAM, Windows 7 Home Premium x64 SP 1 Sonar X1 Essential Garritan COMB2, Sonatina Symphonic Orchestra Audacity 2.0.1 Dell 2408 WFP, 1920x1200 M-Audio Delta Audiophile 2496 M-Audio Keystation 88es Logitech Z-2300 speaker system AKG K-240 Studio headphones
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ltb
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Re:Edit Note Durations
2012/08/17 10:52:22
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What I do for start times in PRV is selecting per instument or range using drag-highlight-select ( left on piano keyboard or note name value with your mouse) or selection using the lasso feature. Then I can slide those notes, instruments or ranges a few ticks + or - & all different values from each other.
You can change by manually dragging or by entering the tick value amounts using menu / process / slide.
Using ranges works well for orchestration or scores by section i.e.-
WW-slide +6
Strings+12
Brass + 16
Perc slide +20
or selecting SATB ranges etc..
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gogreen
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Re:Edit Note Durations
2012/08/17 15:53:15
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Thank you, Carl. I don't have this in front of me yet, but the +6, +12, +16, and +20 you suggest are what meaasurement?
Arthur J. Michaels www.arthurjmichaels.com Finale 2000, 2001, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2011b.r2 (currently using 2011b.r2) Core i7 860 @ 2.80 GHz, 8.0 GB RAM, Windows 7 Home Premium x64 SP 1 Sonar X1 Essential Garritan COMB2, Sonatina Symphonic Orchestra Audacity 2.0.1 Dell 2408 WFP, 1920x1200 M-Audio Delta Audiophile 2496 M-Audio Keystation 88es Logitech Z-2300 speaker system AKG K-240 Studio headphones
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Edit Note Durations
2012/08/17 16:05:55
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Ticks (PPQN) (Pulses Per Quarter Note)
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gogreen
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Re:Edit Note Durations
2012/08/17 17:14:18
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Ticks (PPQN) (Pulses Per Quarter Note)... OK, Bristol_Jonesey, thanks!
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bmdaustin
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Re:Edit Note Durations
2012/08/17 19:19:42
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Maybe it's changed since 8.5 but I've been doing that for years with success. Try it and see how it turns out for you.
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