Helpful ReplyBus vs. Send what's the diff and when to use?

Author
JD1813
Max Output Level: -74 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 813
  • Joined: 2008/04/16 10:25:04
  • Status: offline
2012/08/22 08:43:43 (permalink)

Bus vs. Send what's the diff and when to use?

Can anyone explain the difference between a Bus and a Send?   I'm comfortable with creating and using Buses, as the means that gets multiple FXs out of the individual Tracks, and handles that processing separately before going to the Master -  but I always thought of Sends as just a way to describe the data flow in/out of the Bus?  Why is Sends a separate function in the Create menu/options, and when do you want to create an "FX Send" rather than a Bus to place the FXs in??    I'm trying to get a better handle on this whole data flow and FX thing, and appreciate any assist or references to tutorials.  I found the CW Knowledgebase and read up on Buses but did not find any clear answer as to whether a "Send" is a whole separate function?    Thanks !      ~ John   

-John  *Acer Notebook Win7 Pro-x64 /Edirol USB UA-4FX/SP B1 Mic/Sonar PE X2a; Alesis QS-7 & Ovation 12-String.  Site: www.soundclick.com/bands/page_music.cfm?bandID=1007877

Technology drives me to drink. Fortunately, it's a short drive..
#1
The Maillard Reaction
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 31918
  • Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
  • Status: offline
. 2012/08/22 08:54:00 (permalink)
.
post edited by mister happy - 2017/08/25 18:08:37


#2
JD1813
Max Output Level: -74 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 813
  • Joined: 2008/04/16 10:25:04
  • Status: offline
Re:Bus vs. Send what's the diff and when to use? 2012/08/22 09:02:58 (permalink)
Mike:  appreciate the feedback,  but now I'm still stumped because I have seen others also here referring to a  "side chain"   but I've never seen that explained clearly either!    My question is still then,  when is it best to select a Track's Out to a Bus,  and when is is best to set up a "Send" and have the Track go Out to that Send?   And what the heck is a side-chain, anyway?    *lol*    I do get what you say about underneath it all, it's all about audio streams,  and yet it must be very important in the Mix, for us to really understand when and how to route those streams to & from, the various Bus and Send options - right?          ~ John

-John  *Acer Notebook Win7 Pro-x64 /Edirol USB UA-4FX/SP B1 Mic/Sonar PE X2a; Alesis QS-7 & Ovation 12-String.  Site: www.soundclick.com/bands/page_music.cfm?bandID=1007877

Technology drives me to drink. Fortunately, it's a short drive..
#3
Beagle
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 50621
  • Joined: 2006/03/29 11:03:12
  • Location: Fort Worth, TX
  • Status: offline
Re:Bus vs. Send what's the diff and when to use? 2012/08/22 09:23:02 (permalink)
you're asking 2 different questions.  side chaining is a completely separate issue from sends and buses.  side chaining uses sends, but you don't have to use side chaining to use sends.

regarding when to use the output to a bus and when to use a send:

sends can be useful for example if you set up a reverb bus.  you don't want to send the full 100% output of the track to the reverb bus, you typically only want to send a small percentage of it.  that's when you use a send - and you set the send amount in the send options.

however if you want to set up, for example, a bus for all vocals to be able to EQ them all equally (not sure I'd do this, but this is just an example).  you would set all of the outputs of all vocal tracks to the vocal bus, set up an EQ on that bus and that will apply the EQ to all of the vocals at the same time using only 1 instance of EQ.

note:  sends and outputs to buses are not mutually exclusive.  you can set the outputs of the vocal tracks to the EQ bus and also set up sends from each of those vocal tracks to the reverb bus.

regarding side chaining:  that's a subject which takes a lot more than I can really go into here.  I'm not an expert on it myself.  what I would suggest is that you check out some videos on youtube about sidechaining in X1.  Paul russell has a couple which were very helpful to me.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=sidechaining+x1&oq=sidechaining+x1&gs_l=youtube.3...1950.5030.0.5490.15.13.0.1.1.0.400.2150.0j8j2j1j1.12.0...0.0...1ac.FKwLW2PZpi8

http://soundcloud.com/beaglesound/sets/featured-songs-1
i7, 16G DDR3, Win10x64, MOTU Ultralite Hybrid MK3
Yamaha MOXF6, Hammond XK3c, other stuff.
#4
Del
Max Output Level: -87 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 168
  • Joined: 2004/08/20 13:36:46
  • Location: USA
  • Status: offline
Re:Bus vs. Send what's the diff and when to use? 2012/08/22 09:35:22 (permalink)

JD,
Take a look at this posting from a while back, posted here on the forum.

http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=1302521

It really helped me; especially with busses I believe that he gets into the use of sends as well.
post edited by Del - 2012/08/22 09:37:57

Regards,
Del
 
www.thebrothersglaser.com
 
DAW: Cakewalk by Bandlab-64bit 
 
 
#5
The Maillard Reaction
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 31918
  • Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
  • Status: offline
. 2012/08/22 09:35:51 (permalink)
.
post edited by mister happy - 2017/08/25 18:08:59


#6
JD1813
Max Output Level: -74 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 813
  • Joined: 2008/04/16 10:25:04
  • Status: offline
Re:Bus vs. Send what's the diff and when to use? 2012/08/22 09:51:25 (permalink)
Thanks to all of you!    First, I'm going to leave off on the side-chaining because I can see I'm not ready to get into all of that - and want to stick to the original thread of Bus and Send.    What I didn't realize was that they can be used in parallel and that makes a lot more sense now - Mike, the analogy of the y-cords that splits the signal off - excellent.    I have not noticed HOW or WHERE in a Track's "Out" settings, do I add a Send as well as Out to a Bus?  But I"ll research this and do some tests.   I will follow up on the links that you guys sent here,  thanks.   I think this is finally turning on some lightbulbs, and I can see the advantages to setting this sort of routing up now.    

-John  *Acer Notebook Win7 Pro-x64 /Edirol USB UA-4FX/SP B1 Mic/Sonar PE X2a; Alesis QS-7 & Ovation 12-String.  Site: www.soundclick.com/bands/page_music.cfm?bandID=1007877

Technology drives me to drink. Fortunately, it's a short drive..
#7
JD1813
Max Output Level: -74 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 813
  • Joined: 2008/04/16 10:25:04
  • Status: offline
Re:Bus vs. Send what's the diff and when to use? 2012/08/22 10:39:23 (permalink)
Del


JD,
Take a look at this posting from a while back, posted here on the forum.

http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=1302521

It really helped me; especially with busses I believe that he gets into the use of sends as well.


Del;  I took a close read at RobertB's  bus and sends posting - complete with great screen captures - whew!   This really is a great piece of work and I'll keep this link handy to refer to more.   There is no way I'd have been able to grasp that several years back - I was still struggling just to figure out how to hit "record" on a track...   but I'm finally at the point where I see how important these are to the mix and how to start really using these controls.  Awesome!   Thanks for the link!  

-John  *Acer Notebook Win7 Pro-x64 /Edirol USB UA-4FX/SP B1 Mic/Sonar PE X2a; Alesis QS-7 & Ovation 12-String.  Site: www.soundclick.com/bands/page_music.cfm?bandID=1007877

Technology drives me to drink. Fortunately, it's a short drive..
#8
AT
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 10654
  • Joined: 2004/01/09 10:42:46
  • Location: TeXaS
  • Status: offline
Re:Bus vs. Send what's the diff and when to use? 2012/08/22 10:43:44 (permalink)
Another thing you can use a send for is prefader effects.  Usually prefader sends are used to send headphone feeds to artists.  But a prefader SEND will stream the channel sound at the set level to a reverb despite bringing down the channel volume fader to nothing.  So the "ghostly" reverbed sound will continue despite the orginial sound dissappearing.

JD, as far as your question of adding a Send as well as an Out to a bus - yes, that can be done but isn't usual. 

Channel>Bus>Output Bus (which is tied directly to your hardware output)

Channel>Send>Bus>Output Bus (the Send has to be tied to the output bus via a send bus)

Sometimes it is clearer to track back your chain.  If you want to hear it, the sound must be connected to your output Bus/Hardware.  Every track channel must be connected to the Output bus to be heard.  A track channel can go directly to the Output Bus, or to a bus or  via a Send which then goes to a Send bus connected to the Output bus.  (Send buses are automatically created when you insert a Send on a track channel)
 
As long as you make sure something you want to hear is connected to the Output bus, you are good to go.  The rest is gravy.   A send just lets you "tap" off the channel signal before it continues on its merry channel route to the output bus, giving you 2 separate signals (or more if you use more than one send).

@

https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome
http://www.bnoir-film.com/  
 
there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
#9
Starise
Max Output Level: -0.3 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 7563
  • Joined: 2007/04/07 17:23:02
  • Status: offline
Re:Bus vs. Send what's the diff and when to use? 2012/08/22 12:20:34 (permalink)
  Commenting on Mikes explanation of the sends. Using one reverb for instance with several sends can save valuable cpu by not running extra reverb plug-ins.

 One other thing that helped me was looking at the rock template already made in X-1. If you trace those feeds and how they work you can learn a lot about using sends.

 Side chaining isn't really as difficult as it seems. One channel simply sends a signal into the side chain effect of another channel and the signal at the side chain input influences the plug-in,lets say a compressor. So a bass track can have a side chain compressor fed by the kick drum track and this can compress the bass every time the kick drum hits leaving room for it in the mix.

Intel 5820K O.C. 4.4ghz, ASRock Extreme 4 LGA 2011-v3, 16 gig DDR4, ,
3 x Samsung SATA III 500gb SSD, 2X 1 Samsung 1tb 7200rpm outboard, Win 10 64bit, 
Laptop HP Omen i7 16gb 2/sdd with Focusrite interface.
 CbB, Studio One 4 Pro, Mixcraft 8, Ableton Live 10 
 
 www.soundcloud.com/starise
 
 
 
Twitter @Rodein
 
#10
batsbrew
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 10037
  • Joined: 2007/06/07 16:02:32
  • Location: SL,UT
  • Status: offline
Re:Bus vs. Send what's the diff and when to use? 2012/08/22 13:23:34 (permalink)
i typically set up a minimum of 6 busses.


Master (takes output to sound card)(all 'sub-busses'  go to master)

Vocal
Drums
Guitar
Bass
Keys
FX1
FX2





typically, i'll have two FX busses, one a reverb, one a delay

sometimes, i'll actually mix songs using automation on the busses, instead of automation on the individual tracks.
it all depends on how i tracked the song.

but it's infinitely variable.

for example, the way an individual bass guitar track responds to a LIMITER on the FX bin of that track, can be different than the way it will respond with the same limiter, same settings, on a Bass Sub-Buss, with the re-direct of the track from master to BASS BUSS....

because of gain staging.

sometimes, one way is better than the other, but you have to have the practical experience to know which is better for a given situation.

saving CPU is one issue....
gain staging is another.

having total control over the eq of an entire group of vocal tracks, using just one EQ plugin...
versus having a EQ plugin on each of 10 different vocal tracks.....you can see how the economy of busses can be used to advantage.

multiple guitar tracks?
multiple bass tracks?

separating Drums into drums versus cymbals versus overheads?
with different Busses for each, and different FX busses setup for each drum sub-buss?

it can get very creative.
and complicated.


Bats Brew music Streaming
Bats Brew albums:
"Trouble"
"Stay"
"The Time is Magic"
--
Sonar 6 PE>Bandlab Cakewalk>Studio One 3.5>RME BFP>i7-7700 3.6GHz>MSI B250M>G.Skill Ripjaws 4 series 16GB>Samsung 960 EVO m.2ssd>W 10 Pro
 
#11
JD1813
Max Output Level: -74 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 813
  • Joined: 2008/04/16 10:25:04
  • Status: offline
Re:Bus vs. Send what's the diff and when to use? 2012/08/22 13:38:28 (permalink)
yep - I'm getting the picture.  Thanks for the examples, I have actually been using busses for a little while now, as opposed to dumping a variety of FXs on each individual track - quickly saw the economy of that as far as CPU usage and overhead - but was bothered by the knowledge that you can't treat every track with the same FX and settings.

For instance, vocals -   lead and BGV don't (usually) get the same treatment of EQ and Reverb, yet that's what I was doing because I thought that was the "more correct" way to do it.   Now I'm seeing why you set up multiple busses and sends and economize on how many instances of FX used, yet still get the individual control you want per track.   I can't say that my head doesn't hurt a bit today mulling over all these great comments - but I can't wait to start putting all this good stuff into practice.  

-John  *Acer Notebook Win7 Pro-x64 /Edirol USB UA-4FX/SP B1 Mic/Sonar PE X2a; Alesis QS-7 & Ovation 12-String.  Site: www.soundclick.com/bands/page_music.cfm?bandID=1007877

Technology drives me to drink. Fortunately, it's a short drive..
#12
Rain
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 9736
  • Joined: 2003/11/07 05:10:12
  • Location: Las Vegas
  • Status: offline
Re:Bus vs. Send what's the diff and when to use? 2012/08/22 14:03:23 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
Though it was  a mean to simplify things, the way Cakewalk implemented busses can be a bit confusing. And understanding busses and signal flow can be a bit tricky, anyway.

Because there's no such thing as audio channels in Cakewalk software and no distinction between tracks and channels - which can make things easier at first - imho, it makes understanding signal flow a bit more complex. It's also less flexible.

A Send (or Aux Send or FX Send) is an additional/alternate output for an audio channel/track. It is used to route the signal to a bus. 

Metaphorically speaking, a bus is a virtual vehicle which you use to route one or more audio track to a destination, and the Send is the gate which allows passengers (tracks) to enter the hangar and climb on one of the busses. 

That bus can then assigned as the input on an auxiliary channel - which is basically similar to a regular audio channel to which no audio track is assigned and on which you cannot record. It is used to stream audio and/or process it. That auxiliary channel becomes the Bus destination.

Unlike Sonar, some applications will also allow you to set the destination of a Bus to a regular audio track, so that you can effectively record that Bus' output. (More on that below.)

Of course, your audio tracks can climb on many different busses at once and be sent to various destinations for different purposes. (as in Mike's Y split example).

In Cakewalk software however, busses are automatically tied to an auxiliary channel (which is also automatically created), hence the reason they refer to them as "Aux Buss" IIRC. Just like they don't differentiate tracks and channels, they don't differentiate busses and auxiliary channels.

Though the way Busses are implemented in Sonar makes things easier on one hand, it also can leave you scratching your head when you read or watch tutorials about busses and sends in a non-Sonar environment because it's a highly custom/non-orthodox way of working. 

Sends, Aux Sends, FX Sends, Busses, Aux Busses, FX Returns, Aux Channels - just the terminology is enough to confuse us. ;) But it's basically 3 things - an output (send), a transit (bus) , and an arrival point (an input in the console).

To illustrate that... In other applications which mimics the hardware paradigms more closely (using "channels"), like Pro Tools or Logic, here's out it works.

You click on Send and select a Bus from a list:




Metaphorically speaking again, that's where the passengers (audio tracks) are walking through the hangar gate (Send) and a climbing on one of the Busses.

Up to that point, however, the Bus isn't going anywhere just yet - it isn't assigned to any channel, it has no output. It has no destination and is still in the hangar.

So you then assign that bus to the input of either an audio channel or, more often, an auxiliary channel. This channel becomes your Bus' destination and you passengers can now be taken to that destination.

In the image below, after creating several possible destinations (auxiliary channels), I'm selecting which bus will arrive where by assigning them as an input to a channel.

So anyone who climbs on Bus no 2 will land in Aux no 4.




As you can see, the auxiliary channel offers the option to use any available input - hardware inputs, busses, etc... 

Aux 1 has no input yet. Aux 2 has one my Audio Interface's inputs selected as a source. Aux 3 is set as the destination for Bus 1. And Aux 4 is set to Bus 2 (checked) but also shows all the available inputs which could be used.

You would use hardware inputs if you were using an outboard fx unit for example, to route its outputs (aux return or fx return) back inside your DAW. 

Regular audio channels offer the same flexibility in terms of input. The main distinction is that you can use them to record audio, unlike auxiliary. 

In other words, in Sonar, Busses are more or less a set destination, whereas in some other applications, they are a mean to bring your signal to a destination.

Of course, you may not need the info, but maybe it can help you figure out how things work, particularly if you see someone doing something cool w/ busses in another application and try to do the same thing in Sonar, because they often use different terminology.


post edited by Rain - 2012/08/22 14:20:31

TCB - Tea, Cats, Books...
#13
JD1813
Max Output Level: -74 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 813
  • Joined: 2008/04/16 10:25:04
  • Status: offline
Re:Bus vs. Send what's the diff and when to use? 2012/08/23 11:58:28 (permalink)
Rain, I really appreciate the details and pics you posted.  Taken together with the earlier post referencing RobertB's documentation also, this is a much more clear concept to me now between bus vs. send.  Some of it's terminology and the rest is how the particular DAW software allows us to redirect or add (or even split) that data into other parts of the chain.   I think  you're right too, that CW seems to make little/no distinction between tracks and channels - which has sometimes confused me.  I also faithfully pour through the video tutorials that CW has, i.e. the Sonar University videos, and for instance did not see any distinction between a bus and a send as a selection option, the speaker tended to use the 2 terms interchangeably when showing us how to assign a bus. 

I'm wondering if any of this will be any more clear in Sonar X2 with the new "lanes" concept?   It would be helpful for folks at my level if there was somehow more of a visual cue to help keep the various data path assignments straight.  Maybe it's just a matter of time and repetition.   And trail and error.   At any rate - many thanks for all the above help!     -John

-John  *Acer Notebook Win7 Pro-x64 /Edirol USB UA-4FX/SP B1 Mic/Sonar PE X2a; Alesis QS-7 & Ovation 12-String.  Site: www.soundclick.com/bands/page_music.cfm?bandID=1007877

Technology drives me to drink. Fortunately, it's a short drive..
#14
Jump to:
© 2024 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.1