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evansmalley
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Re:Why/How/When SONAR X users can benefit from Varispeed. 2012/09/18 21:03:53 (permalink)
After thinking about this for a while, I would guess that a simple form of overall vari-speed, like is used in Reaper, would be the easiest and most functional update for Sonar. I'd guess it uses a basic vari-ing of the sampling frequency, like ADATS did, which Anderton mentioned. Having separate Vari-Pitch and Vari-Tempo probably would have a lot of good things about being able to use them separately, but the audible artifacts of those processes would probably be a problem. Still would be nice to have as an option. At least there's audiosnap already. And some easy ways to change the pitch of a clip- but they sound kinda funky to me in the way that they have artifacts and weirdnesses- kinda ruins the FIDELITY of the sound!

The sweet thing about overall vari-speed, like it's done in Reaper, is that it keeps pitch and speed proportional and doesn't crush or stretch the audio in a weird way, which can create undesirable weirdnesses in the sound. 

 

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Jeff Evans
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Re:Why/How/When SONAR X users can benefit from Varispeed. 2012/09/18 21:08:19 (permalink)
The point is can Sonar provide varispeed easily and the answer is No simple as that. Can other programs do it and the answer is yes and very easily. That should be noted. As usual because Sonar cannot do something or do it easily many Sonar users think no other program can or should be able to do it as well.

Reaper does it very easily and so does Studio One and it does it all live and in real time. (with superb sound quality) As I have explained earlier. Any single audio event or group of audio events can simply be played back at any interval from 1 to 24 semitones either above or below concert pitch. Not only that but anywhere from 0 to 100 cents as well in either direction. 

Tempo stays the same of course but you only have to move the tempo parameter in Studio One and every audio file will easily speed up or slow down accordingly. What more could you want. So entire arrangements can be simply and very easily altered tuning (and tempo) wise to allow for a difficult instrument tuning wise to be recorded. (didgeridoo is great example of this) They have probably allowed for this from day one though in their planning and execution. Just adding it on to an existing program may not be as easy as many think. 

To be honest though even though I use a program that does all of this very easily I have rarely done it ever. And so to Sonar's defence I think that putting a program down because it cannot do this easily is also a bit unfair too as I am sure there are many features in X2 say that are very worthwhile from many other workflow points of view and far outweigh the varispeed option. But it does also mean if you are really wanting and needing to do this a lot because you are someone that is involved with recording a lot of things that are not normally tuned to concert then some further investigation into what DAW's do it easily and well may be warranted.

Also to those people who are talking about people and how they may conduct themselves on this forum remember my signature. You are of poor mind when you are doing that. Stick to the ideas instead, it is much more interesting and valuable.

post edited by Jeff Evans - 2012/09/18 22:09:40

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yorolpal
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Re:Why/How/When SONAR X users can benefit from Varispeed. 2012/09/18 22:19:19 (permalink)
And really great minds don't have time to futz with any of this horse hockey.

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Re:Why/How/When SONAR X users can benefit from Varispeed. 2012/09/18 23:22:45 (permalink)
Equine Plumage!!!

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* 2012/09/19 07:55:19 (permalink)
*
post edited by Bash von Gitfiddle - 2018/10/04 23:01:26


Jonbouy
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Re:Why/How/When SONAR X users can benefit from Varispeed. 2012/09/19 08:04:23 (permalink)

 
Draw leaf or refectory?
 
Why major on an aspect that doesn't work when you've been given many suggestions that do?  i.e. wide band pitch shifting.
 
Audacity even will do it for free.
 
Being as you like the idea of flexing a single knob try this. (again)
 
http://www.quikquak.com/Prod_Pitchwheel.html
 
btw Sonar doesn't have varispeed just now, in case you were unaware of it, most of us would like to see it at some point but for the simple limited problem you gave there are many options available already that shouldn't impact on your workflow to a greater extent than labouring on a lost cause here.
 
Take your pick, or carry on swinging it.  Your choice.
 
HTH
 
post edited by Jonbouy - 2012/09/19 08:20:11

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Funkybot
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Re:Why/How/When SONAR X users can benefit from Varispeed. 2012/09/19 08:19:47 (permalink)
Because this thread has seems to have gone off track on odd conversations about tuning or things other than true varispeed...I quote myself (with some added insight):

...Varispeed would allow one to:  

1. Create harmonies they couldn't otherwise sing (pitch the track down 2 steps for a moment, sing the harmony along with the now pitched-down track, pitch everything back up - boom a high harmony you coulnd't otherwise sing). The Beatles did this all the time. The change in timbre was just part of the sound (see Paperback Writer). 

2. Create cool effects just due to timbre changes. Example: The "In My Life" (The Beatles) piano solo. That odd sound is a grand piano that played the solo an octave lower, then was sped up and therefore pitched back up an octave. The pitch shifting and formant changes due to the speeding up created that weird harpsichord like tone. Also, George Martin would have been unable to play a part that fast at full speed, hence why the track needed to be slowed down in the first place.  

3. Smooth automatable varispeed would allow for cool pitch bending effects. A good example is the intro string part to The Flaming Lips "Race for the Prize," those sliding strings are all done with a tape varispeed.  
post edited by Funkybot - 2012/09/19 08:45:59

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Jonbouy
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Re:Why/How/When SONAR X users can benefit from Varispeed. 2012/09/19 08:24:00 (permalink)
Funkybot, nobody is disputing that 'varispeed' would be cool. (and it is where it is available)
 
Sonar doesn't have it just now, there are many methods of skinning Mikes cat though which are simple enough for even him to perform.
 
Trust me I use a couple of applications where it truly is available but that isn't enough in itself to have made Sonar redundant.   You get that tools that do the job you require if you need them badly enough.
 
Mike just likes to see the menu so he can order something that isn't on it, and then complain about the restaurant rather than eat someplace where his tastes are catered for.

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Funkybot
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Re:Why/How/When SONAR X users can benefit from Varispeed. 2012/09/19 08:47:04 (permalink)
Jonbouy


Funkybot, nobody is disputing that 'varispeed' would be cool. (and it is where it is available)
 
Sonar doesn't have it just now, there are many methods of skinning Mikes cat though which are simple enough for even him to perform.
 
Trust me I use a couple of applications where it truly is available but that isn't enough in itself to have made Sonar redundant.   You get that tools that do the job you require if you need them badly enough.
 
Mike just likes to see the menu so he can order something that isn't on it, and then complain about the restaurant rather than eat someplace where his tastes are catered for.
Understood. For now, I keep a Reaper license around for when I want to varispeed something but use Sonar for most other things. 


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evansmalley
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Re:Why/How/When SONAR X users can benefit from Varispeed. 2012/09/19 10:25:47 (permalink)
For now, I keep a Reaper license around for when I want to varispeed something but use Sonar for most other things. 



Yeah, me too. But it's SO much more of a pain to work in than Sonar, in my opinion!

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stevec
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Re:Why/How/When SONAR X users can benefit from Varispeed. 2012/09/19 11:36:04 (permalink)
And after reading some of the creative uses for Varispeed in this thread, I too shall try Reaper's version of it.  It definitely has me curious...
 

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evansmalley
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Re:Why/How/When SONAR X users can benefit from Varispeed. 2012/09/19 12:49:00 (permalink)
One of the coolest things I ever did with Vari-Speed was to WAY speed up the tape and tune it to a kick drum, without pillow, etc, and play it to a song with a felt mallet. Then when we put it back at normal speed- WOW. Huge, in tune, LOW LOW drum sound. Everyone was blown away and realized I was a genius... duh! 

Vari-Speed... I would be very surprised if the majority of the people who have been critical (in this thread) of those who want it bad have ever used it! And if they record many real acoustic instruments on the clock. Nothing wrong with that, of course- just wondering...

The thing that no one seems to have mentioned is that "Vari-Speed" is different from "Vari-Pitch" and "Vari-Tempo"- in an important way. Many computer alterations of audio have to stretch or crunch the music- and that can create weird sonic artifacts that can ruin a beautiful sounding recording. Vari-Speed, at least as it's implemented in Reaper, doesn't sound warbly or weird. To me, V-Vocal- while a cool tool- often sounds really weird. Unacceptable in classical, acoustic, or hi-fi music. 

I'd guess- have no idea- that as Craig Anderton suggested- it's done with a global change to the sampling frequency, like the ADAT used to do. So it just plays the file slower of faster without recomputing it in an unnatural way. I don't know- just a guess? 

But it sounds a lot more natural to me than the pitch change software (and audiosnap) that's currently available in Sonar. Which is critical if you're trying to do classical or acoustic music. 
post edited by evansmalley - 2012/09/19 13:15:53

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stevec
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Re:Why/How/When SONAR X users can benefit from Varispeed. 2012/09/19 12:58:41 (permalink)
Did speeding up the playback rate adversely affect how the drummer performed the part?   That's one of the down sides I see to traditional varispeed, at least for the more drastic differences.  
 
But I guess I'll have to try it myself...  I'm thinking that artificially creating a big ole kick drum might be a good start.  
 

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evansmalley
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Re:Why/How/When SONAR X users can benefit from Varispeed. 2012/09/19 13:12:44 (permalink)
Well sure it's something that anyone has to adjust to... but for any willing musician, ya don't mind trying weird or challenging things to create AWESOME. It's usually not that hard to just play to a slightly faster or slower tempo. But if it's too hard, you just forget it and try something else. 

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Re:Why/How/When SONAR X users can benefit from Varispeed. 2012/09/25 16:13:15 (permalink)
I truly support the varispeed feature (both traditional tapelike, as well as pitch adjustment for the entire project)
I think it is a useful feature, as described by both McQ and SublteArts.

It should support all data in the project to be tuned up or down semitones and cents with two dial knobs. This concerns  both audio and midi data, and notes generated with the step sequencer and arpeggiator . A switch is needed to indicate whether tempo is to be adjusted along with the pitch. The knobs and switch should be situated in the Control Bar.


But if I had a dulcimer player in my band a would ask him to consider a Roland V-dulcimyser.

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Re:Why/How/When SONAR X users can benefit from Varispeed. 2012/09/25 17:02:36 (permalink)
Just an aside...

In the E9 tuning on the pedal steel there are only two strings that tune to 440. The rest are cents above/below and then the instrument is played in tune with the rest of the band via ear intonation. Or in many cases, not.

And though I've not tried it with a hammered dulcimer, I've been quite successful utilizing DNA to correct one poorly tuned string on an acoustic guitar/ banjo/mandolin etc.


*On edit - Color customization would make me much happier that varispeed.
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Re:Why/How/When SONAR X users can benefit from Varispeed. 2012/09/25 18:47:05 (permalink)
I don't know if I wrote this already but if I can create a wave file of a track and then load it into a sample player and then use a pitch wheel to be the varispeed, how hard can this be to implement in CAKE?  

Jim


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