sethmopod
Max Output Level: -87 dBFS
- Total Posts : 189
- Joined: 2007/01/17 00:03:13
- Status: offline
Kick replacement madness - transients off time SOLVED
I'm replacing a kick drum in a mix. On about every other kick hit, the audio snap transient marker is being placed well before the kick drum actually starts. Far enough ahead that it creates a noticable double transient on the kick when mixed with room mics/overheads etc. I can, of course, manually move each affected transient marker to the right spot, but how many times does a kick drum get hit during a 4 minute song!? I started on that and it's mind numbing and will take forever. Any hints or settings to get audio snap to place its transient markers where the transients actually start? Thanks, Seth
post edited by sethmopod - 2012/10/11 21:10:18
|
FastBikerBoy
Forum Host
- Total Posts : 11326
- Joined: 2008/01/25 16:15:36
- Location: Watton, Norfolk, UK
- Status: offline
Re:Kick replacement madness - transients off time
2012/10/08 01:56:29
(permalink)
Is it an additional transient or the only one (per kick hit)?
If it's the only one and they are all off by exactly the same amount use the right click menu to select all and move them all en masse. If it's an additional marker try using the filter section to filter them out. I would think that the resolution filter would work well in that situation, quarters for example but of course it will depend on the kick drum pattern.
You may be able to use that to reduce the work load a little if not fix it completely.
It might also be worth bouncing the kick drum down to a clip. In my experience with audio snap a little bit of clip housekeeping such as trimming and bouncing to clip makes a huge difference to how successful audio snap is especially on live material.
|
bapu
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 86000
- Joined: 2006/11/25 21:23:28
- Location: Thousand Oaks, CA
- Status: offline
Re:Kick replacement madness - transients off time
2012/10/08 12:26:29
(permalink)
sethmopod
Any hints or settings to get audio snap to place its transient markers where the transients actually start?
Thanks,
Seth
Replace it with drumagog Simples. YMMV.
|
reginaldStjohn
Max Output Level: -81 dBFS
- Total Posts : 485
- Joined: 2011/01/15 23:42:50
- Status: offline
Re:Kick replacement madness - transients off time
2012/10/08 14:42:12
(permalink)
sethmopod
I'm replacing a kick drum in a mix. On about every other kick hit, the audio snap transient marker is being placed well before the kick drum actually starts. Far enough ahead that it creates a noticable double transient on the kick when mixed with room mics/overheads etc. I can, of course, manually move each affected transient marker to the right spot, but how many times does a kick drum get hit during a 4 minute song!? I started on that and it's mind numbing and will take forever.
Any hints or settings to get audio snap to place its transient markers where the transients actually start?
Thanks,
Seth
I had the same problem with kick drum. Not all of them were off just some. I had to move them by hand.
|
bluzdog
Max Output Level: -56 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1928
- Joined: 2007/10/06 17:15:14
- Location: Lakewood, Colorado
- Status: offline
Re:Kick replacement madness - transients off time
2012/10/08 17:22:31
(permalink)
Audiosnap doesn't always do well with transient markers.....not sure why. Transient markers are easy to move by hand but it can get tedious if you need to do it often. If you do a lot of drum replacement Slate Digital Trigger is awesome. I've also heard great things about Drumagog.
Rocky
|
bapu
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 86000
- Joined: 2006/11/25 21:23:28
- Location: Thousand Oaks, CA
- Status: offline
Re:Kick replacement madness - transients off time
2012/10/08 17:28:45
(permalink)
bluzdog
If you do a lot of drum replacement Slate Digital Trigger is awesome. I've also heard great things about Drumagog.
Rocky
See post #3. I have both and I prefer drumagog even though it's only 32bit (right now, they've promised 64bit soon). The nice think about drumagog is you can use nearly any VSTi drumpler (i.e. EZDrummer, Superior, BFD etc) as the source of the replacement sound.
|
bluzdog
Max Output Level: -56 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1928
- Joined: 2007/10/06 17:15:14
- Location: Lakewood, Colorado
- Status: offline
Re:Kick replacement madness - transients off time
2012/10/08 21:01:06
(permalink)
bapu
bluzdog
If you do a lot of drum replacement Slate Digital Trigger is awesome. I've also heard great things about Drumagog.
Rocky
See post #3.
I have both and I prefer drumagog even though it's only 32bit (right now, they've promised 64bit soon).
The nice think about drumagog is you can use nearly any VSTi drumpler (i.e. EZDrummer, Superior, BFD etc) as the source of the replacement sound.
Does Drumagog replace overheads? Slate can't. I also like the ability to derive sounds from any vsti. Rocky
|
Silicon Audio
Max Output Level: -84 dBFS
- Total Posts : 346
- Joined: 2012/03/06 04:33:19
- Location: Northland, New Zealand
- Status: offline
Re:Kick replacement madness - transients off time
2012/10/08 21:12:36
(permalink)
I was working on multi-track drums from a session the other day and noticed my woofers slowly moving in and out. Turns out it was sub-sonics from a condenser mic outside the kick drum. You couldn't see it in the wave drawings and you couldn't hear it. I had to put a high pass filter set to about 20 Hz to get rid of it (could have gone lower, but didn't have an EQ or filter that would go any lower). I wonder if audio-snap is maybe hitting a sub-sonic?
I have seen this misalignment before, but mainly on percussion. So maybe low amplitude subsonic audio is the culprit? It would be interesting to destructively apply a sub-sonic filter to a kick track and then apply AS to see if it improved the problem.
"One of the great and beautiful things about music and recordings in general is that legacies live on" - Billy Arnell - April 15 2012
|
bapu
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 86000
- Joined: 2006/11/25 21:23:28
- Location: Thousand Oaks, CA
- Status: offline
Re:Kick replacement madness - transients off time
2012/10/08 21:22:57
(permalink)
bluzdog
Does Drumagog replace overheads? Slate can't. I also like the ability to derive sounds from any vsti.
Rocky
I have done a hi-hat with it. I imagine you could replace OHs but the are more complex. Ride, Crashes, HH and bleed. I personally think OHs in Drumagog may me more trouble than simply creating MIDI to replace it. JMO.
|
Silicon Audio
Max Output Level: -84 dBFS
- Total Posts : 346
- Joined: 2012/03/06 04:33:19
- Location: Northland, New Zealand
- Status: offline
Re:Kick replacement madness - transients off time
2012/10/08 21:30:04
(permalink)
bapu
The nice think about drumagog is you can use nearly any VSTi drumpler (i.e. EZDrummer, Superior, BFD etc) as the source of the replacement sound.
The same is true with Audio Snap. You end up with a bunch of midi notes that can work with any sampler, VSTi, DXi, external midi synth, etc... I've used AS a lot to replace/augment snare and it's worked brilliantly.
"One of the great and beautiful things about music and recordings in general is that legacies live on" - Billy Arnell - April 15 2012
|
bapu
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 86000
- Joined: 2006/11/25 21:23:28
- Location: Thousand Oaks, CA
- Status: offline
Re:Kick replacement madness - transients off time
2012/10/08 21:36:53
(permalink)
Silicon Audio
bapu
The nice think about drumagog is you can use nearly any VSTi drumpler (i.e. EZDrummer, Superior, BFD etc) as the source of the replacement sound.
The same is true with Audio Snap. You end up with a bunch of midi notes that can work with any sampler, VSTi, DXi, external midi synth, etc... I've used AS a lot to replace/augment snare and it's worked brilliantly.
Agreed. There are many ways to get the job done. For me Drumagog is so much simpler. Load it in the FXbin of the audio track, choose a kit piece. Done. I found using A/S to create MIDI tedious and more prone to errors than Drumagog. Granted Drumagog is an expense and if you're happy with your results with A/S then that is all that matters.
|
bluzdog
Max Output Level: -56 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1928
- Joined: 2007/10/06 17:15:14
- Location: Lakewood, Colorado
- Status: offline
Re:Kick replacement madness - transients off time
2012/10/08 21:39:38
(permalink)
As long as we're on the subject: Melodyne has a percussion mode that can create midi tracks.
Rocky
|
Silicon Audio
Max Output Level: -84 dBFS
- Total Posts : 346
- Joined: 2012/03/06 04:33:19
- Location: Northland, New Zealand
- Status: offline
Re:Kick replacement madness - transients off time
2012/10/08 21:50:32
(permalink)
bapu
I found using A/S to create MIDI tedious and more prone to errors than Drumagog.
Granted Drumagog is an expense and if you're happy with your results with A/S then that is all that matters.
How does Drumagog handle a situation where half the hits are rim-taps and you only want a sampled snare on the snare hits? I like having the midi rendered to a track so that I can edit it.
"One of the great and beautiful things about music and recordings in general is that legacies live on" - Billy Arnell - April 15 2012
|
sethmopod
Max Output Level: -87 dBFS
- Total Posts : 189
- Joined: 2007/01/17 00:03:13
- Status: offline
Re:Kick replacement madness - transients off time
2012/10/08 22:27:56
(permalink)
Drumagog looks neat, but not inthe budget right now. Just finished a round of upgrades to my electric violin rig, a new mic, X2 update - not installed yet, windows 7 - seems like I finally need to make the jump from XP, and the latest Finale update. Feels like every time I sneeze I shell out $100-$200!
FBB - It's not the threshold. I've managed to easily get out all the snare drum bleeds, etc. and it's not so easy as a mass edit - only some of the markers come early.
There is a consistency in which markers are early. Only the ones where the kick is silent before the hit are early. That is kick on beats 1 & 3 have early markers. When the drum is hit twice in succession, the second hit is always marked correctly - that is if the drummer plays 1 rest 3& rest, the 1 & 3 have early markers, the & of 3 has it's marker right on time.
This makes me think it can't be subsonic triggering - there's nothing there that split second before the kick gets hit. The drum is still...
I've done quite a number of kick drum replacements with A/S, but this has never happened before.
|
Silicon Audio
Max Output Level: -84 dBFS
- Total Posts : 346
- Joined: 2012/03/06 04:33:19
- Location: Northland, New Zealand
- Status: offline
Re:Kick replacement madness - transients off time
2012/10/08 22:45:32
(permalink)
sethmopod
There is a consistency in which markers are early. Only the ones where the kick is silent before the hit are early. That is kick on beats 1 & 3 have early markers. When the drum is hit twice in succession, the second hit is always marked correctly - that is if the drummer plays 1 rest 3& rest, the 1 & 3 have early markers, the & of 3 has it's marker right on time.
This makes me think it can't be subsonic triggering - there's nothing there that split second before the kick gets hit. The drum is still...
I've done quite a number of kick drum replacements with A/S, but this has never happened before.
I still wouldn't rule it out. For me, I think it was the way the drummer was resting the kick beater on the kick-drum batter head. Some drummers rest on the kick batter head - this is especially true when the kick beats aren't subsequent - which just happens to be when you get the early trigger. A sub-sonic movement could be generated as the batter head springs back when the beater is lifted. I could see the subsonics on my woofers and they didn't coincide with the kick beats. You could test this theory simply by putting a high-pass filter on the kick track and rendering it to a clip before enabling Audio Snap. Cut somewhere below 30 Hz if you can. If you want to send me a short audio sample from your kick track - PM me and I'll do the donkey work. If we can figure out the cause, we could probably find a way for CW to fix this in a patch or future release. A/S would simply need to ignore anything below, say, 20 Hz.
"One of the great and beautiful things about music and recordings in general is that legacies live on" - Billy Arnell - April 15 2012
|
sethmopod
Max Output Level: -87 dBFS
- Total Posts : 189
- Joined: 2007/01/17 00:03:13
- Status: offline
Re:Kick replacement madness - transients off time
2012/10/08 22:59:11
(permalink)
Good point. He is a pedal pusher so to speak. I'll try bouncing the track with a filter on it and reapplying A/S.
|
Ian Ferrin
Max Output Level: -80 dBFS
- Total Posts : 527
- Joined: 2005/01/28 22:51:42
- Location: Suburbia
- Status: offline
Re:Kick replacement madness - transients off time
2012/10/09 00:54:18
(permalink)
sethmopod
I'm replacing a kick drum in a mix. On about every other kick hit, the audio snap transient marker is being placed well before the kick drum actually starts. Far enough ahead that it creates a noticable double transient on the kick when mixed with room mics/overheads etc. I can, of course, manually move each affected transient marker to the right spot, but how many times does a kick drum get hit during a 4 minute song!? I started on that and it's mind numbing and will take forever.
I had a thread a couple of years ago about how limited audio snap is. There was absolutely no control about how audio snap placed it's transients. IE, if you could choose the dynamic or volume threshhold at which transients are placed, AS would be hugely more usable. As it was, you often had to manually correct many or most of the transients if you wanted tight control over your quantization. It doesn't look like anything has changed is X2! The 'filter threshold' and 'filter resolution' that you can set only apply to the quantity and tempo of the transients. The point on the decibel curve where transients are placed it still 100% automated with zero control given to the user. Audiosnap does pretty well with some stuff. Not so well with other stuff. The only thing that I've found that helps at all is making sure you have the tempo set correctly. When is CW going to put a user definible transient threshold in Audiosnap? Surely they're aware there's a need? Peace, Ian
post edited by Ian Ferrin - 2012/10/09 01:13:31
"Everyone is a 'believer' - even if you don't believe, that's a belief" - Me Songs - (at soundclick) Sonar Platinum, Native Instruments Komplete 10u, Korg N1R X2 (for some reason I still love this old synth).
|
tunekicker
Max Output Level: -65 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1261
- Joined: 2005/10/28 14:39:50
- Location: Grand Junction, CO
- Status: offline
Re:Kick replacement madness - transients off time
2012/10/09 01:18:16
(permalink)
@SiliconAudio thanks for sharing your experience. I'm going to try this myself next time with AudioSnap. There are a lot of things I wish worked better with AS, but really the biggest one is accurate placement of transient markers. If that were done better most of the rest of the problems are easy to overcome. I think you may be on to something.  For what it's worth, I've sometimes pre-processed drum tracks I know I'm going to sample replace by printing EQ filters, transient designer, etc. onto the tracks to make the transients more obvious. I've done less of this now that I replace primarily with Slate Trigger and its smart Leakage Suppression feature. Basically you place Trigger on a bus and send the things you want to trigger a sample to the left, and the things you don't to the right. Trigger then has levels you can set for how sensitive it is to each, enabling you to easily trigger a snare sample on snare hits without triggering the snare sample when the high hat or kick or toms are hit. This feature is BRILLIANT. Between this and setting the Sensitivity almost all the way down, Retrigger almost all the way up, and Detail almost all the way down it is easy to get ghost notes on the snare. For kicks I usually bring the Detail up since most drummers don't do subtle kick hits. Peace, Tunes
|
Ian Ferrin
Max Output Level: -80 dBFS
- Total Posts : 527
- Joined: 2005/01/28 22:51:42
- Location: Suburbia
- Status: offline
Re:Kick replacement madness - transients off time
2012/10/09 01:35:09
(permalink)
tunekicker
There are a lot of things I wish worked better with AS, but really the biggest one is accurate placement of transient markers.
For what it's worth, I've sometimes pre-processed drum tracks I know I'm going to sample replace by printing EQ filters, transient designer, etc. onto the tracks to make the transients more obvious. I've done less of this now that I replace primarily with Slate Trigger and its smart Leakage Suppression feature.
Trigger then has levels you can set for how sensitive it is to each (sample), enabling you to easily trigger a snare sample on snare hits without triggering the snare sample when the high hat or kick or toms are hit. This feature is BRILLIANT. Between this and setting the Sensitivity almost all the way down, Retrigger almost all the way up, and Detail almost all the way down it is easy to get ghost notes on the snare. For kicks I usually bring the Detail up since most drummers don't do subtle kick hits.
This absolutely the kind of sensitivily threshold Cakewalk needs to put into Audiosnap!
"Everyone is a 'believer' - even if you don't believe, that's a belief" - Me Songs - (at soundclick) Sonar Platinum, Native Instruments Komplete 10u, Korg N1R X2 (for some reason I still love this old synth).
|
tunekicker
Max Output Level: -65 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1261
- Joined: 2005/10/28 14:39:50
- Location: Grand Junction, CO
- Status: offline
Re:Kick replacement madness - transients off time
2012/10/09 01:41:53
(permalink)
This absolutely the kind of sensitivily threshold Cakewalk needs to put into Audiosnap!
Yes! Just having a frequency sweep and listen function like a de-esser would be awesome. Then we could tell AudioSnap more about which transients we actually want it to detect. Having something closer to Trigger would be amazing.
Peace,
Tunes
|
Ian Ferrin
Max Output Level: -80 dBFS
- Total Posts : 527
- Joined: 2005/01/28 22:51:42
- Location: Suburbia
- Status: offline
Re:Kick replacement madness - transients off time
2012/10/09 06:09:38
(permalink)
sethmopod
I'm replacing a kick drum in a mix.
Any hints or settings to get audio snap to place its transient markers where the transients actually start?
Thanks,
Seth
Since you're replacing your kick drum, you could try applying gating to a copy of your track. It'd make the existing track sound terrible but you'd probably get impulses that AS would track properly. Especially if you're going to quantize afterwards. - Ian
"Everyone is a 'believer' - even if you don't believe, that's a belief" - Me Songs - (at soundclick) Sonar Platinum, Native Instruments Komplete 10u, Korg N1R X2 (for some reason I still love this old synth).
|
bluzdog
Max Output Level: -56 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1928
- Joined: 2007/10/06 17:15:14
- Location: Lakewood, Colorado
- Status: offline
Re:Kick replacement madness - transients off time
2012/10/09 13:24:33
(permalink)
Ian Ferrin
sethmopod
I'm replacing a kick drum in a mix.
Any hints or settings to get audio snap to place its transient markers where the transients actually start?
Thanks,
Seth
Since you're replacing your kick drum, you could try applying gating to a copy of your track. It'd make the existing track sound terrible but you'd probably get impulses that AS would track properly. Especially if you're going to quantize afterwards. - Ian
+1.....You could gate the original and be downright abusive with EQ to get the transients to behave. Rocky
|
sethmopod
Max Output Level: -87 dBFS
- Total Posts : 189
- Joined: 2007/01/17 00:03:13
- Status: offline
Re:Kick replacement madness - transients off time
2012/10/11 21:07:07
(permalink)
Bluzdog & Ian - exact same thought I had. Just checked back into the forum after a couple of days and here's where I am. Made a bounce of the kick track with a gate, high pass @ 134, big boost @ 1261.9 - gotta love digital  - and a compressor to bring out the punch of the attack. AS still leads the transient by what looks like a fair bit on some of the hits. That said, when I used the resulting MIDI track to trigger Session Drummer, I no longer hear double beats. Totally usable. Problem Solved. In fact, I'll probably never use audio snap for this purpose again with out doing this. The gate alone has saved a ton of time weeding out errant snare hits etc. Thanks for all the help!
|