Helpful ReplyBounce vs. Clone vs. Apply Audio Effect

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olemon
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2012/10/17 10:30:37 (permalink)

Bounce vs. Clone vs. Apply Audio Effect

I've been asking a lot of questions lately, including one similar to this in 'Getting Started'.  I surely do appreciate your responses.
 
I think I understand what happens with Bounce/Clone/Apply Effect, but I'm wondering when and why you experts choose one option over the other.
 
What prompted my asking is that I read here about copying an original vocal track a couple of times and panning the copies to get fuller sounding vocals.  That got me looking at the different ways to 'copy' clips and tracks and the inevitable 'why?' cropped up.
 
(Sidebar, I used V-Vocal on some clips and then cloned that track - is that a good technique?)
 
 

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57Gregy
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Re:Bounce vs. Clone vs. Apply Audio Effect 2012/10/17 10:53:05 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
I think the only reasons you should bounce/apply is when you want to reduce the drain on the processor. If you have a lot of effects or synths, that uses a lot of processing power. Bouncing tracks or applying effects allows removing the effects and synths.
Or if you've reached the program's limit of synths and/or effects, as in Music Creator.
Or if you don't have a super-powered computer with tons of RAM.
Cloning, I only do on some MIDI tracks if I want to use the same melody but a differeent patch.
 

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digi2ns
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Re:Bounce vs. Clone vs. Apply Audio Effect 2012/10/17 11:03:40 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
Im just trying to get this straight in my head as well.

Reading the manual and experimenting last night and today, Ive kinda got an understanding on Bounce to.  It is destructive which means that once you have multiple clips with automation, V-Vocal, slip edits, fades, etc... on the clip, once bounced all this will be integrated into the new track.  Things like V Vocal that are inserted on a track in the clip will then be removed after being incorporated with the new clip.  

Its nice if you have a lot going on in one track and want to clean it up once your happy with what you have.

One thing I remember reading is that it is NOT good to do it to the same track multiple times because it is kinda like rendering an MP3 and hurts the track little by little.

Cloning I like when Im duplicating parts of tracks but if pasting to different tracks you have to remember that any effects you have on the original track will not be moved/copied with the copied parts being pasted.

This is what I have come to so far.

Curious to see what others are doing as well.

 


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57Gregy
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Re:Bounce vs. Clone vs. Apply Audio Effect 2012/10/17 23:02:21 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
I don't have X1, Mike, but in my experience with bouncing, the original track with all the edits, envelopes, effects is untouched. You just end up with a track that sounds like the original, but doesn't use up as much RAM as the first track did.
You can then Archive the track which removes all the effects from processing, and you can still unarchive later if you want to make changes to it.

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Re:Bounce vs. Clone vs. Apply Audio Effect 2012/10/17 23:19:05 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
I'm too indecisive to bounce anything. "Destructive" and "permanent" are scary words. They mean "too late now, dummy, you gotta live with that flanger!" 

Freeze is your friend when a friend is really all you want right now, because you're not ready to commit. Freeze is a friend with benefits. It lets you enjoy the benefits of a bounce without the complications.


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Guitarhacker
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Re:Bounce vs. Clone vs. Apply Audio Effect 2012/10/18 09:11:45 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
I bounce when I want to lower the processor load by shutting down some synths. After the bounce, I can delete or archive the synth track and work with the audio which is less processor intensive. This is important if the project has a bunch of midi/synth tracks and or heavy CPU intensive FX in it. Bouncing and or freezing can ease that strain and load. I would probably opt to freeze it since freezing does the same thing as a bounce but doesn't create more tracks to clutter the screen and cause confusion. 

I use PROCESS AUDIO> APPLY quite often..... it is, as some point out, a bit on the destructive side....if you shut down and then restart. I found that I can undo as long as the undo is saved in memory but it does get scrubbed when a shutdown occurs. 

I use this ALL the time with melodyne..... I edit and click save as I work until I reach the end of the track...I click save again.... then I listen through the track several times to be sure I have everything right...then I select the track with melodyne being careful to highlight JUST THAT TRACK and all the clips in it...then I Process Audio> Apply FX and let it roll.  It applies the melodyne edits permanently and removes the plug in and I am now left with the track printed to audio.  

My guiding theory is that I do not want or need the old out of tune track anyway so overwrite it with the tuned one. If I missed something....I simply reinsert melodyne and just load that one small section, fix it, process it and go on. Melodyne only touches what you touch, so nothing except that one or two notes gets edited. I use this method all the time with melodyne.

I clone only if I feel that the editing I'm about to do might screw up the track and want a safety net to fall back on. I clone before the edits. And I will delete one of those tracks when I finish. No need to have 2 tracks of the same thing. If the edit was successful, it stays and the original gets deleted.... or vice versa if the edit failed. 

I might work a bit different than some folks here. I'm not afraid to make destructive edits as they are called. I don't fear losing a track because I can generally redo it in a very short time. 

Yesterday, for example, I was working on some guitar and vocal tracks.... I had old ones in the project that I was't exactly happy with ..... I mean they were OK and totally satisfactory but I wanted something different. I clicked the guitar and deleted the tracks and then recorded new ones.... same thing with vocals. Most of the vocal tracks in my songs are one shot takes.... I run through it a few times to get warmed up and hit record and go for it. I don't spend hours on the tracks.

Of course, that's just me, and how I work. 

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olemon
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Re:Bounce vs. Clone vs. Apply Audio Effect 2012/10/18 10:05:58 (permalink)
Very helpful everyone!  Thanks.

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Re:Bounce vs. Clone vs. Apply Audio Effect 2012/10/18 10:22:33 (permalink)
I never Bounce to Track
I never Process > Audio > Apply
I sometimes clone, but usually when I want to experiment with something
And I never bounce V-Vocal clips

I will freeze synths, but again, usually for a specific reason.

I will often bounce to CLIP when working with Midi, just to make things neat & tidy, & also it makes it easier to an en masse Split of all tracks


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Re:Bounce vs. Clone vs. Apply Audio Effect 2012/10/19 08:58:56 (permalink)
I could see where it would be real nice in X2 with Boune to Clip when you have layed down a mess of takes writing a rhythm or lead track and have numerous takes.  Select the ones you want to keep and bounce them to a single track.

Of course assuming you have all the clips set the same as a raw clip 


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Re:Bounce vs. Clone vs. Apply Audio Effect 2012/10/19 10:39:49 (permalink)
Freeze.  All the benefits, none of the complications and after archiving I can always go back to where I was after mucking things up.  That does happen, you know.

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Re:Bounce vs. Clone vs. Apply Audio Effect 2012/10/20 22:18:28 (permalink)
I'm with Bit when he says that Freezing is your best friend (along with the other responses). I wonder if you've also made use of Sends as they greatly decrease RAM usage and there's no bouncing needed. It's said to use them when effects are being shared.

So, let's say you have your guitar + vibe tracks with Eighth Note Delay, Light Reverb II, Mud Reduction III. Create a Send with all three effects adjusting the send knob to apply the Wetness. Your latency a RAM will see a much appreciated reduction.

And as far as applying, well, just mute the appropriate Send track. It's kind of like Input Monitoring when you audition with the FX, but don't print them.

I use them quite often now - mind you the individual tracks still have their own FX.

Cloning. I do this, too. I'd like to thank Beagle for pointing this out. There's nothing wrong with cloning an audio track. However, as it's been said that a significant volume boost happens when the instrument patch isn't changed or isn't panned as to not be sitting on top of each other. However, with audio, you may get the same issue, but more often than not, phasing may happen. S, if you do clone a track, nudge either one over so slightly as this will give you stereo separation a la the Chorus effect. Turn the chorus knob (or fader) wide open and there you have it.

This is just one way to get thick sounds (ie: Vocals, Basses, Guitars, Keyboards, Strings even Drums and Percussion)

Again, nudge the duplicate track over ever so slightly of course coupled with nice panning helps as well.

So, while it's good to use an effect, there's a way to utilize the "Home-Made" version. 500 ms delay? As that is equal to an eighth note, clone a track and move it over whether its midi or audio. Home-Made Chorus? Clone, then slightly tweak the cent count. There's more to it, but that's the idea.

If either or both methods give you the desired effect. revel in the satisfaction. This is something you here from production people, where there's a better way to do something and by better, I don't mean wrong, but why put a Limiter on something when you can turn up the volume, but there are other ways if you don't wanna do that. Are they better or worse? It's hard to say because everybody's different, so just experiment to see what happens.

I do realize I'm late to the party.

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