HPF and LPF Usage

So Ive been reading on HPF and LPF

Last night I brought up a project Ive been learning with and at one time I thought it sounded good but last night it really sounded like it had way to much on the low end

Sitting here with coffee I decided to try it out from the start with an already recorded project and with the difference Im hearing got me to wondering if everyone using starting points on all their tracks takes.  Im seeing a lot online as to having atleast 100 on the HPF on every track outside of Kick and Bass as a starting point.


So here is a screen shot of what I used as my starting points and it seems to have made a huge difference but tomorrow Im afraid it might sound way to bassy again LOL.  

Am I thinking right using HPF and LPF in my intial template or ???   Whats the normal for you?

don't arbitrarily assign hpf's


listen to them


move that curve where your ears and monitors tell you they need to be


can't trust your monitors/room?
gotta fix that first



100 is not low enough for most tracks

if something sounds boomy, and is put with something else that sounds boomy, it's gonna be boomy when they are all together



focus on masking


don't do a lot of solo'ing of tracks, that does not matter.

what matters is the mix


at least listen in 'clusters' of tracks, to find the buildups


think of carving frequencies out of certain tracks to allow places for other tracks to sit

but be very critical about moving the low end of the bass guitar and kick drum around, so they do not sit on top of each other.

does not matter which goes high, or which goes low, only that they are different

It really seems to have separated everything out better and Im not hearing/feeling that low end as bad now and the bass and kick still sound good for now but seem to be separated alot better and stand out more.

It kinda makes me want to go back and redo all my other projects to see how it works on them.  

The joys of being a beginner  

As far as starting points... it's fairly straightforward.

Instruments have undertone harmonics and rooms can sometimes create emphasis to the undertones however, it's fairly safe to start out with lo-cuts when you have knowledge of where each instrument plays on the spectrum.

That's why the low region is often reserved for the instruments that are expected to use that region; the Kick and bass.

I lo-cut the kick at 10-20hz and the bass at 30-40hz and most of the rest of the stuff get's lo-cut where it's suitable. 100hz is a good staring point.

I always check each track out at some point just to make sure I haven't over looked some important undertone or resonance. For example; a mic'd acoustic guitar will have a lot of useful sound below the lowest note's voicing... which can be great for sparse arrangements, but that's the same stuff you'll want to clean out on a dense arrangement... so every decision should have a context.


Charts like this make it easier to get started:








I like to lo-pass filters to weed out any phase flutter that is happening above a instruments useful range. It's hard to hear, doesn't help, and makes stuff sound disconcerting when it doesn't need to.


I like to use hi-shelfs when I just want to sculpt and bit of either "tameness" or "air".






Have fun.




best regards,
mike

Take the Bass for example

Set the leave the main EQ 350-4500 alone

Slope the HPF 350 down to somewhere in the 40-60 range

LPF 4500 and up


Am I think correct as a starting point

Thanks for the info.

Trying to setup a template for myself in X1 so its all there as my starting point (Im forgetful LOL)

This will help a bunch

"digi2ns"
I dont see a legend for it on the chart. (wouldn't mind having this chart to post up on the wall either )

The October 2012 edition of "Sound on Sound" has a very nice "Audio Frequency Chart" glossy insert (approx. 18" x 24"). I have to say that it would look real nice either laminated or plasticized on the wall. Check it out if you can still find that issue in a mag. store.

I hpf/lpf damn near every track I record. Use your ears WITHOUT hitting that solo button I know you want to hit. (Even though I do it once in a while)

Thanks Jeff

I was just playing with that.

Say for instance I had a snare with some rumble in the lower end of it that I could actually hear. I set the slope steeper and adjusted up and down around the 125-175 range just until I believe it was cleared up.

Are there somewhat certain slopes for certian items, like the Bass being less steep compared to an acoustic guitar. 

Ive been doing like you suggested and just trying to hear what adjusting each track is doing and it seems to be doing like what you are explaining. The end result is its appearing to give it a more defined result with out loosing to much out of each track and loosing what I think I hear is to much boomyness or low end noise.

I also use a HPF on every track. Most of them with exception of the Kick and bass are set from about 80hz up. Kick and bass for me are set at around 40hz although they may go lower if need be.

As someone mentioned earlier it's all about how it sounds in the mix. There isn't much useful in most instruments below 40 hz and a lot of sub sonic frequencies are just energy that create rumble low down rather than add anything to the overall sound.

The human ear is great at reproducing missing fundamentals so you can actually have HPFs set higher than you might think. I tend to solo an instrument and sweep the HPF frequency up until I can hear it take something away from the instrument. I'll roll it back a little from there and that then becomes my starting point for that track which may well get increased as I start to mix and perhaps need to make space for something else.

I usually find an instrument that sounds good soloed will sound crap in the mix and vice versa.

A great book that will answer just about every question you may have on EQ as well as every other aspect of mixing is "Mixing Audio" by Roey Izhaki. It comes with a DVD full of audio examples that are referred to in the book and it is worth every penny. IMHO.

One of the reasons I usually use a hi pass on the kick drum is because I have a rather large hi powered sub woofer and a bass controlled room and I can actually hear the nasty undertones on the kick drum mic that I want to minimize with a hi pass.

It could also be that I use a selection of mic that gets ALL the bass tone coming off the bass drum.

That's why I usually do that... because I can actually hear the stuff I want to not hear.

Same for the bass guitar. With a fundamental of low E at 41 hz, some cool undertones, and a dedicated preamp that doesn't have a built in lo cut factor as a result of a inadequate miniaturized power supply, you can actually hear some nifty low under tones that the musician wasn't planning on using well below the 41 Hz. 

That's why I usually do that... because I can actually hear the stuff I want to not hear.

:-)

One should always make all these decisions within the context of the music they are dealing with and listening too.





Also, I like soft slopes and I like steep slopes. They sound different in context and it can be enjoyable to choose the slope you prefer while listening.

best regards,
mike

digi MikeIts interesting that a lot say not to solo when doing this which really gets me on how to zero in on something I think Im hearing needs cut. But then I understand its a training thing Im still growing into as far as how to listen for it first.

 
Here's why they say that, and I say that too, Mike. When you solo something up and work on an eq, you tend to mix for "the sound" instead of "the song" understand? We don't want that because 8 out of 10 times, until you really get a grasp on this stuff, that sound will NOT work in the context of a mix if you worked on it by itself. This is why solo is no good. But for you to learn what to listen for in certain situations, solo can help you until you learn these things.
 

digi MikeI would assume that when the mix comes together as a whole, the smaller things would come together in the end creating the unwanted noise Danny refers to even worse?

 
Sometimes it will. It depends on what and how you've tracked. That's what I'm trying to point out here. You may not have certain things in your mix due to how you recorded them. When I record something these days, and I'm serious when I say this, I do NOT need lots of eq-ing in my mixes because I've spent the time at the sound creation and tracking stage. I usually get away with high passing a little, low passing a little and lightly sculpting mids for thickness or highs to cut through a little if need be. I can eq any sound that I recorded myself in about 2-5 minutes tops and it's a keeper.
 
That doesn't mean that anyone else will like the sound but me...lol...but it's usually good enough for me and my clients are always happy as well. See, the more you take care of business before you track, the less you take care of while you mix. Rest assured, the pro's we all know and love rarely sit there screwin' around with a sound for 2 hours trying to make it work in a mix. They know before they record it whether it will work or not. Then of course there ARE times when you are sound creating where you may sit there and experiment with a turd and make a special effect out of it. It's always different really and depends on what you're faced with when you do the tracking.
 

digi MikeInteresting that even if you had a HPF on every track set at the default 40hz (or lower) it wouldnt hurt just to have it there to start adjusting as needed.

 
You COULD do that if you wanted to just to have it ready to go, but see, not everthing is going to need a high pass in that area. High passing a guitar in that area or lower does nothing. High passing a vocal in that area or lower does nothing. Now a kick drum or a bass guitar, yeah you're gonna get a little something there depending on the Q you use. For keys where the person is using lots of low notes on the left hand, yeah, you're gonna get something there too. But just using 40 as a starting point is rather moot in my opinion because chances are, you're never going to keep anything there unless an instrument was recorded in a way to where that frequency and below needs to be controlled.
 
There are so many variables to figure in on this Mike, it can spin your head around really. Mics, techniques, the soundsource itself, what your monitors are telling you, the room, the sim, the DI....it's endless really which is why I sincerely feel starting points for high passing and low passing are just useless. Too much depends on how the instrument was tracked.
 
For example say someone sends you an old stereo drum track that they couldn't do much with where the drums appeared to be a bit too high passed and the kick wasn't thumping enough. Now, if this is your soundsource and they came out of the gate sounding like that, a 40 Hz high pass would either:
 
a) Take away the little low end that was there (depending on the Q)
 
or
 
b) not make a difference at all because there wasn't any low end in that range to be removed.
 
So this is where you have to use your ears to make the right decisions and why starting points will not work. The more you do this stuff Mike, the more you learn what makes a good sound for recording and what doesn't. If we don't have any high end sizzle on a guitar track, we do ourselves an injustice low passing 8k and above. You have to determine if an instrument really has something in it to begin with before you just take it away, understand? :)
 
-Danny

Alegria

"Danny Danzi"

See, the more you take care of business before you track, the less you take care of while you mix.

Amen to that!

I've even seen people use the lo-cut switches on microphones.


;-)

digi2ns


Im with ya Danny,

Im one of those "it is what it is" people when Im thrown something and try to work with it from there. 

December Im asked to go to a new place and do a Live Recording because the singer is splitting off and moving up in the world.  The entire band wants a memorable keepsake from their playing together.

I know what I have to work with equipment wise and my current abilities and hope I dont get in the way to much.  They have been very happy with past recordings and have gained alot of gigs off of them so Im not worried there. 

But as far as being able to get as good a recording off the bat is where the challenges for me come in.  Alot of unknowns prior to going in but we do the best we can and its hard to mess about when someone is on a paying gig trying to please the public  and all my equipment will be separate from theirs.  

But you guys are right and I understand that there are a million different variables before we even get to the point of mixing and deciding on HPF/LPF.  At this point Im still sucking it all into my brain before going out like this so I can be better prepared to try more and more things to get better at it without getting in the way.  

In this situation, you just go for the most balanced sound you can get while trying your best to keep the instruments you're mic'ing up as pure sounding as they sound when you literally listen to them in the live atmosphere. I know...easier said than done. Just remember....just about always, we can add things. So if you go for balanced, most of the time you can create or sculpt if need be. If you over-do something, depending on what or how it's over-done, you sometimes can't undo it. :)
 
So just be careful with any outboard gear or anything destructive like excessive eq pre print, compression on the way in, mic pre's too hot etc. Go for balanced and be careful of excessive coloration at this point and you'll be fine. In a live recording that I will take back and mix at my studio, my experience has been to keep it balanced and don't try to make it sound like a polished, finished album or a finished master. Trying too hard at this stage of the game can really mess you up. Just capture pure sounds without excessive processing and you should be be fine. Good luck with that Mike, I hope it turns out great and you can maybe share some of it with us. :)
 
-Danny