How bout Song Structure and Chord Progressions?

The A doesn't have to be a verse.

If you start with a chorus every now and again you can mix it up a bunch and the song form might be similar even though it doesn't seem so.



I offer that as simply one of dozens of ways to add variety to your song writing.


best regards,
mike

Listen to the founders of soul music..... and some of the off spring as well. 

Al Green, Temptations, Sly Stone, James Brown, suggesting these as a starting point.  

As a suburban white kid growing up in the 60's and into music, that is what I was listening to back in the day..... also in that mix was the Beatles, Stones, Who, Deep Purple, and so many more really great artists and bands from all sides of the musical aisle. 

Expose yourself to as many diverse musical influences as possible in the genre you love and most especially ones that you may not like all that well.  Include jazz, country, bluegrass, cajun, european, and as many others as you can. You will learn something from them all. 

When it comes to songwriting..... (one of my favorite things to do and talk about) there are no rules per say..... there are however, certain "current rules" and suggestions.  What is acceptable now may not be in 6 months. 


When I set down to write a song I do not start out by saying I will write to this or that formula.... ABABCB  or ABCABCDC  or BAABAB.  I let the song dictate what structure it will be.  Keeping in mind that depending on the genre.... certain structures are more conducive to hit songs than others.   I simply write what I feel and it will generally take one of the major structures all by itself. 

I'm mainly a country writer, although I do dabble in other genre's from time to time.  Years ago it was common to start a country song with the chorus, but in today's country that is almost never done.  Now, ONE verse followed by pre-chorus or straight to a monster killer hook chorus rule in Nashville.  Lots of songs that are hits are simple ABAB song structures. The chorus and hook determine if it's a hit. 

The mantra is "don't bore us, get to the chorus" ... that's in Nashville.  But I think that would also apply to the pop music world as well.... Many songs have meaningless or of disputable value verses... they are place holders... the real goal is the chorus..... the hook is there and that is the part everyone sings and remembers. 

A good idea would be to seek out songwriters in your genre. There are sites and forums online that cater to every musical taste.

I was with TAXI for a time: they cater to film & tv.... they have a great educational aspect and as a visitor to the site you can join in the forum for free. Meet others from ALL genres there. Members can submit to musical opportunities in the film & tv world as well as artist listings. They also do song reviews.

Nashville Songwriters Association: all about writing and education in that line of thought. As a member you get 12 detailed reviews and one on one (1 hr each) sessions with writers who have had hits and careers in the biz. They have an extensive members only library of online videos that feature people in the biz explaining details of all aspects of the business and especially focused on the writing of songs. 

Songwriting is not a natural thing for most people. It is a learned skill and as with all skills, you can become much better at it by doing, and by associating with other more skilled writers and learning to do what they do. 

Even the biggest and best songwriters, the ones that write the hits.... write an average of 50 songs to one chartable top 10 hit. So get busy writing..... find kindred souls, and learn all you can about the craft and art of writing a good song. 

1, 4, 5 works as a start...then go from there adding what the song wants to add....

As I say in my signature......

Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer.  It's already there.... it's just waiting for the right person through whom it will make itself known.... let the song write itself.  If you try too hard to write a song you will generally end up with crap.

There is no right or wrong when it comes to progressions.... I do try to find unique and interesting chords to use to augment the basic 1,4,5. 

davdud101


Yeah, I ask tonnes of questions... But it's OKAY for a Michigan-born Afro-Merican trombone/guitar/keyboardist 15 yr old kid, right? right???
Anyway, I was wondering, what are some different:

1. Song structures? I find myself extremely stuck to the ABCABCDC, and I'm actually getting annoyed ofi t because it's becoming a tad monotonous for me.
2. Chrod Progressions? I guess I don't NEED them in specific keys (would be nice, that way I could just transpose and figure the rest out), e.g. I'm kinda cool with talking with 3rds, 5ths, etc. But I just wanna see what different combos there are for these guys.

Thing is, I want to push my songwriting to another level- beyond the VSTi's, deeper than the LFOs and sine waves, but into the music. And I'll need a bit of assitance. Thanks!

Well,... chords are just notes grouped together. Every group of notes has many, many, ways of arrangement and execution, inflection, ie., how and when they are made, strike force, which note first, which note loudest, the sequence of all the parameters you are able to sound on a chord. The definitions of key are just that, definitions that follow a set of rules that was as close as possible to a mathmatical constant. But there is no constant, only what the human ear will accept.
Song structure will denote style. Folk is the oldest and trueist. Go back to a chant amoung apes, you will have the roots of folk music.
You must build song structure on what you are trying to acheive in terms of imparting a rythm, chant, prayer, feeling, etc. Song structure should carry the meaning and soul of the peice.

davdud101


So true. I-IV-V is pretty standard, I could honestly name a bunch of songs off the top of my head that follow it, several of my own included. Any specific variations/deviations you could give me on that?

There was a thread here awhile back about chord substitution. Where you may have gone to D in every other verse/chorus but next time through, change it to F#m or Bm. C to Am, G to Em, etc.
At least that's what I thought the OP meant.

I-IV-V is so over used.  How come you rarely hear about others like L-C-M?  Yeah...

Kenneth


Lastly, I'd advice learning major, natural minor, harmonic minor and melodic minor (in that order) in all 12 keys of an octave until you know them in your sleep, sounds like a tall order but with a couple hours a day it shouldn't take more than a month tops. The freedom you get from this allows you to run though chords to come up with progressions very fast because you don't have to think about it anymore.

This is from the guitarist (Ernie Denov) for the Lt. Dan Band (Gary Sinese's band - from Forest Gump, CSI: NY, et. al.):
 

There's really only FIVE scales you'll ever need to know to be able to play over just about any jazz tune or "standard":
Major, Harmonic Minor, Melodic Minor, Whole Tone (all whole steps) and Diminished (half step, whole step, half step, whole step, etc.). When you think about it, how hard is THAT?! Five scales, THAT'S IT! Of course, you'll want to know their modes (for the first three anyway; the whole tone and diminished scales are completely symetrical and sound the same no matter where you start them) and be able to play them in all keys. Pentatonic scales are just partial scales; they're contained within those first three. And of course, the most popular, commonly used pentatonics (major and minor) come from the major scale. The one scale I didn't mention at all is the "blues scale," but to me, it's just a pentatonic with one extra note (C, Eb, F, F#, G, Bb), which I consider to be a chromatic embelishment.

Sounds similar to what you're promoting.  I'll be checking out your links later, but can you expand on what you're suggesting to be learned?  I read it as learning the scales but, since we're talking about chords and chord progressions, how are you implying we get from one to the other?

davdud101


So true. I-IV-V is pretty standard, I could honestly name a bunch of songs off the top of my head that follow it, several of my own included. Any specific variations/deviations you could give me on that?

Yes and no. I don't have time to explain it all, not that I even know enough to do so compared to some of the folks here who have forgotten more music theory than I will ever know...... 


Basic rules I apply when searching for chords to use outside of the normal 1,4,5.  


Learn the harmonic minors:  In the key of C for example, Am (Bapu's favorite chord BTW) is the harmonic minor to C.  You can easily throw in the Am chord where you play the C maj chord. Not always but in many cases. 


With all major and minor chord voices, you should learn and use the 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th variations of the root chord and also the 9th 11th and 13th.  Each one of those variations has a different color and sound to them. Some stand alone, and some of them scream to be resolved. Resolving a chord simply means it doesn't sound complete or finished and wants to go somewhere else to be "home". Usually to the root chord of the key. 

I use 6ths and 7ths in Maj & minor all the time. They are essential.

Happy accidents.... every now and then, as I'm playing, and not really thinking...kind of in a Zen moment..... I will grab the "wrong chord" and it just works. 


The more theory you learn the more naturally it will come to coming up with colorful inversions and chords.  


Look on Youtube.... for jazz musicians who are playing the instrument you have as your strongest instrument currently.....the jazz players, probably more than anyone else use all of the colorful chord variations and inversions and you can learn much from them. 


If guitar is your instrument, buy one of those chord books..... the ones that say "The Only Chord Book You Will Ever Need" or "7500 Essential Chords for Guitar" and work on some of the "other chords" in various keys... stuff like: G7sus4,  G7b5, G+, Gdim, G13b5b9, etc... the book I have has approximately 75 different chord variations per basic root chord. 


Learning just a small handful of those chords will expand the possibilities for you when you write. 


Best wishes.....have fun. 

Guitarhacker


If guitar is your instrument, buy one of those chord books..... the ones that say "The Only Chord Book You Will Ever Need" or "7500 Essential Chords for Guitar" and work on some of the "other chords" in various keys... stuff like: G7sus4,  G7b5, G+, Gdim, G13b5b9, etc... the book I have has approximately 75 different chord variations per basic root chord. 


Learning just a small handful of those chords will expand the possibilities for you when you write. 

Or you could save a tree and just buy Ted Greene's "Chord Chemistry" instead. I always thought that those books that have a zillion chord fingerings in every key were a waste of paper. Chord Chemistry has a ton of fingerings, but doesn't show them in every key (a waste of time for guitar players who can move box patterns up and down without adjustment) and most of all, it explains the whys of chord voicings, along with such essential concepts as voice leading and substitution. I bought that book when I was 19 and it was the single most useful guitar book I have ever owned. It revolutionized my understanding of chords from the get go. Greene was a master of guitar chords, and it's well worth watching videos of him playing on YouTube to see why. 

There's another thread here with many posts and links about music theory.

I asked a similar question in the techniques forum a couple months ago and got a few pages of answers.  Some of it gets a bit technical, but there's some cool stuff there.  

http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=2658142