mastering down to cd always seems to have a different tone that what i precieved it to be

  every time i get the songs where i think i want em, by the time it goes to cd, sounds so much more muddy. out of delta 1010 i had been going into mixing board and out to m-audio speakers. could the mixing board really be giving the songs that much more bass end? should i just mix straight out into the bx8 speakers and use the daw as the volume. i am also thinking about installing a car stereo into one of the carpeted walls of the studio(like local car stereo shop) just to give me another monitoring device in the studio. getting tired of running out to the car at all hours of the night.lol do any of you have any ideas as to better LISTEN to these mixes? also the tone of the song really changes in sound forge and cd architect. all these daws have different tone also. what sounds good in sonar x2 might sound great in architect, or vise versa. using sonar x2a,sound forge, cd architect, waves,t-racks, ozone to polish. asus i5-win7-64bit sp1, 2 gig external, 2 - delta 1010 cards, yamaha 24 track , bx8, sound proof room, control room. a truly great set up, just don't seem to have a great control group to listen to and get the mixes closer to as they sound on final cd tone...

As an experiment, send one tune out to be mastered. Yes, it may cost you a little, but you may learn a lot.

Too much bass is typically a sign of a monitoring environment that is essentially, not flat. That would include bass traps, understanding the standing waves (aka frequency cancellation) and other things like that. I doubt seriously that the board is adding that much bass. Admittedly, they all have a color, but if it's pronounced, something else is the issue. (btw, I too, have those Bx8's as reference).

Try this: Turn down the mix until something is the last thing heard. Then turn it back up some - say 3-4 db.  What is missing from the mix?  Chances are, whatever the last thing you heard at the lowest volume is too hot in the mix. Essentially, it should sound as 'balanced' playing back at conversation level as concert level.

Also, in your 'car', is the EQ flat during playback, no subwoofer? windows up or down? driving down the highway where road noise is 75db? All things that will effect what you hear.

i wouldn't try and compare you mix to a tune off the radio. Lets' assume you get your mix to sound like that. If you're lucky enough to get airplay, by the time they get through compressing, eq'ing, altering and doing whatever they do to it on the way to the transmission amplifer, well, you won't like it. (I didn't - I was fortunate to have a friend that owned a dozen stations and could sneak it on the air at 3 in the morning - thanks Dave wherever you are now)

I don't know what type of music you are doing, but generally speaking most people like a firm, punchy bass... and so we tend to make sure that 'our' mixes have that in it. Trouble is, most (nearly 100%) people add some form of EQ on top of all you hard work.

I have found that to sound 'reasonable' on other playback devices, i have to leave the bass a little less pronounced in my environment (that's a concrete walled basment for the record). It was (and still is) a hard thing to do.

Note: I'm certainly not saying I'm any good at it have it down pat - I only do this for a hobby)

You metioned a sound proof room, that doesn't automatcally equal an acoustically flat room. Check out http://www.johnlsayers.com/ for superb room design plans and advice. Also, Ethan Winer http://ethanwiner.com/ has some good info on acoustics.

As other might chime in with, don't master thru phones, give yourself plenty of breaks - even over days (trust me, it WILL sound different the next day if you've been at it for 4-6 hours the night before).

Also, this is a link to some mastering articles from other sonar users: http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=432991&mpage=1&key=%F1%A9%AD%9F

Bottom line for me is:  Try getting an 'unmastered' mix to sound good - that doesn't mean loud - but good and balanced, then master it.  The mastering step should just be the polish.

Good luck. Great sounding mixes are a journey. Take your time and know there will be many stesp taken.

(once again, still on my journey)

Your room, ears and the way your using your tools are your faults

  ty cj, i already knew my ears were my fault.lol i did do something interesting tonight guys. i took the crappy mix cd.... put it in a cd player, ran it into the mixing board... set the eq's as close sounding to the problem mix as possible(that i monitored in my favorite car stereo)... started a new f/x chain(in the box) that while using the new control group eq settings on the mixing board, got me way closer to what i was trying to achieve sonically. so now i am taking an ear-brake, then i will go back in and adjust what i now perceive as 1/2 way acceptable on the eq(out of box)another 1/4 the way up on eq(in the box) hence learning to control my uncontrolled environment. once i get the money i am reworking the control room to more correct measurements and bass destroyers. the shame of it all is i am learning what a sub par control room i have...

I think the hardest part of mixing is making it sound good on different systems. I can get it to sound perfect in the studio, but in the car or in another room it doesn't sound as good. Very frustrating!

Daveny5, i can tell you that if you get the mix right on 'accurate'monitors,' it will sound good on any system, the same as any mastered and finished 'released' track. My point being that you need to get new monitors, 'accurate' monitors. I had the same problem a few years ago and learn't a very simple and valuable lesson, "Use some accurate" monitors, simple as that. Apart from the obvious difficulties and processes in achieving the final good result, I don't think  there is any magic-trick involved here, so i repeat, "If it sounds good on accurate monitors, then it will sound good anywhere.

  I would also suggest spending time listening to commercial mixes in your studio and also comparing your recordings to the commercial mixes.
   I believe that your ears tend to adjust to what they're hearing. I've found it easy to get carried away adding high end sparkle and fat bass until I compare it to my favorite commercial release and found that my mix is way over hyped.  

vizio


   .... i took the crappy mix cd.... put it in a cd player, ran it into the mixing board... set the eq's as close sounding to the problem mix as possible... 

all that proves is that the mix you hear is going to the CD. 

You appear to have a room acoustics issue. Simply put.... the sound you hear in the studio is NOT accurate. Due to room acoustics, speaker bias, etc.... 

options: test lots of CD's to find the right mix....or.... treat the room acoustically...... or ...... get some reference monitors to mix with (you have not mentioned that I saw what you are using to mix)......or....... use ARC to dial in some room correction electronically....... 


BTW: what speakers or monitoring method are you using to mix?   I had the same issues.....the mix never sounded right on other systems, until I started doing it right. Starting with good monitor speakers, then adding ARC.  Now, the mix translates well to most other systems. 

godparticle


........ i can tell you that if you get the mix right on 'accurate'monitors,'.
 My point being that you need to get new monitors, 'accurate' monitors. ........ "Use some accurate" monitors, ........ "If it sounds good on accurate monitors, then it will sound good anywhere......
 
 
What would recommend as "accurate monitors"  especially  in his budget.  The BX8 are about $350-$400.  What are you using?
 

Theater Shack called Room EQ Wizard all you need is a microphone

For measuring your room correctly, regardless if your using a free program or not, you just cant use any microphone.
Different mics will pick up different frequencies more than other frequencies. Example: the SM57 will yield you a stronger mid range.
 
Microphones made for recording are not used for measuring rooms as i just explained. You need a measurment mic made specially for measuring frequniy responce. Earthworks makes a great one for right under $700. Its the M30
 
CJ

cj,  I agree about using any microphone won't work as expected.  So... I got curious about the 'Room EQ Wizard' and started reading the documents on it.

It 'appears' (since I've not tried it - but logically it makes some sense) to use nothing but a SPL meter.  It generates the spectrum - after calibrating the soundcard itself by using a loopback (which even the basic pro-sumer' should be pretty flat), it generates tones up and down the spectrum and measures the levels of each and records the spl along the way.  Admittedly, that is less than perfect but, could yield some real overall room correction - at least at any on given place in the room (the desk position, etc.) .  I would assume that is something like the ARC system does. 
 
edit: fwiw, if nothing else, the online help files for that piece of software is a good read on acoustics - the why and how an eq correction only, won't work and the room has to be treated.   We all know this, but tend think technology will save us

Something like that may have some value for someone just starting out or lacking in the funds for the real mccoy.

On a side note, I recall that Rane used to make and analyzer (no idea if they still do).  Back in the day (ha!) it was a godsend to come into a club you've never been in, hit that up, take some measurement and match up the final 'room' eq (last in my live signal chain) and in about 2-3 minutes, have some sense that the group you were mixing for would sound pretty much the same anywhere they went.  (I used to write all that information down on notepads (31 band eq's), then came along EQ's where you could store the curves - yay!)

Overall, I agree with you and the others and to the OP - the room and speakers are the key.

oh, and a few beers, lots of time to train your ears and an occassional pizza or two in those late night sessions and the very biggest thing (imo), working with others so that one doesn't get narrowminded in what they think sounds good.

Best!