Recorded guitar tone

That's really a great question, Max. It's always different though. For example, most everyone in the big leagues will do their best to nail the sound at the tracking stage. So for sure, your first rule of thumb should be to get it right when you record it at all times.

However, and this is where things can get a little tricky, sometimes when we have a great sound where we go through the pains of heck to get it right at the tracking stage, it may not be what we hoped for when you actually try to mix it in with other instruments.

When you get faced with THIS, you'll have more post processing creating the sound. But for the most part, the tones you hear that you love are pretty pure. The differences in them from their "completely raw" form is high passing to keep the rumbles out, low passing to keep the high end in check, and either some mid push to warm up or thicken the tone....or some mids removed to control the mids from walking on other instruments.

Of course compression and other effects will also come into play, but unless you're tracking say...Prince, the sound you hear is not going to change all that drastically due to post production other than some fine tuning and polish.

When I track here, exactly what I've mentioned to you is what takes place. It's rare for me to work a sound so much via post production that it no longer sounds like what I initially tracked. If a sound is not good enough for me at the tracking stage, I keep at it until it is and won't even print it until it's where I like it to be.

When you work using this method, 8 out of 10 times the sound is going to work right within the mix unless of course what you THINK may have worked, doesn't work as well as you thought. A prime example of this happened to me recently.

I did some work for Cian (whack) on the forum where he wanted some dirty rhythm guitars in a song. My personal sound preference for the song sounded really good to me, but not quite what he was looking for. By the time I got done working the tone to fit his song as well as what he prefered, it no longer sounded like the tone I printed...but it was every bit as good as the initial print...and it fit the song and Cian's needs. So there are times when you definitely have to push the post production envelope. Hope this helps. :)

-Danny

In my experience of recording guitars for heavy metal, there is virtually no post processing done at all. Maybe a tiny amount of corrective EQ, low and high cuts to remove unmusical elements, and perhaps a multiband compressor to tame certain amplitude problems. The sound is 99% from whatever is between the player's fingers and the sound interface.

The best way is to record almost exactly what you want to hear - esp. from electric guitars.  A guitarist plays the sound as much as the notes.  A nice room, good mic, decent preamp and techniques "captures" the sound.  If you are missing any of the above pieces or if your sister-in-law dropped off her toddler so your wife can play mommy and wants the music turned down if not out early (happened to me last night) a good DI can capture the notes.  Then you can play w/ an amp sim.  They are getting really good (tho I'm not a guitarist).  There is nothing wrong w/ many amp sim/settings, tho I prefer the real thing (and keeps this non-guitarist from having to make guitar choices).

Only you can decide if your systems are good enough to capture what you want to hear - or to use a sim.  That is why it is called art, not science.

@

maximumpower


My amp has a direct out. Can I take that into my audio interface then use an amp sim later? I like the feel of my amp when I am playing. That is an issue with amp sims, for me. I will give it a try. I have several amp sims plus there are ir players put there that I can try.

I have been asking all these questions because I do not have a 4x12 closed cabinet, which it seems a lot of guitars are recorded with these. I also do not have two SM57s.

I certainly can get that equipment but maybe there is another way to get "that" sound.

It depends what "that sound" is brother. Your amp DI will send out a distorted tone which may make an amp sim more difficult to use. What you can do there is use a cab impulse on the DI. The problem with amp di's is, none of them send a clean sound....it's always the sound you are playing with. If you're using the amps dirty channel, it sends dirty...and not a good sound I might add because it's a DI and not a speaker sim sound. So you could send that to an amp sim, but don't use the amp part...just use a cab in the suite and you should be fine.
 
I feel your pain on the amp sim stuff not feeling right. It also gives you more drive than actual sustain. To help with that, put a stomp box in line first. Something like a Tube Screamer or some sort of over drive pedal. No distortion boxes as you don't want that...you just want a little drive kick and "buffering". Set the output on the stomp box all the way up, keep the gain all the way down...if it has a tone knob, adjust to taste. If you pick up a little hiss/noise, back the output of the pedal down until it's gone.
 
What this does is...it simulates an amps buffered input signal. When you plug into an amp, the signal is pushed a little before it hits the pre-amp stage. This is where amp sims fall apart. There is nothing buffering the sound and this is why you try to hold notes to get sustain, and they just die out on you. They have plenty of gain, just 0 sustain.
 
Another fix for this is to try the Acme Bar Gig stuff. All our stuff sports an input gain which allows you to boost the signal before it hits the amp. I still use a light compressor going into our stuff, but if you don't have one, you'll still get killer results. You'll find quite a few amps for free on the ABG site. Shred is great....and Head Case (though not free) is simply incredible in my opinion. You can even build your own amp and tone stack from the ground up if you choose to. But the stock amps in it are awesome in my opinion and the input gain thing we offer really brings our amps to life. So you're right...you really don't need a cab or a 57.
 
You might not like this tone, but this is no cab, no power amp, no 57. A little compression, a light room impulse, and no one is gonna know whether or not it was mic'd
 
 https://dl.dropbox.com/u/4909348/HighGainTubePre_NoPowerAmpNoCabs.mp3
 
I use this particular sound more than mic'n my cabs up. It nearly sounds the same to me and isn't worth the mic inconsistencies that you'll experience from day to day if you happen to move the mic. I do like to mic my cabs for certain things though...especially lead guitar so the sound differentiates. Good luck Max.
 
-Danny

Oh man, sorry about that Dave! It appears they updated their website and removed all the free ones for now. There's a comment at the bottom of their site that mentions: "Where's the freebies? – Have no fear; we're still making freeware and they'll all be available again very shortly. We're overhauling our site and delivery methods so please sit tight. You could always download the Head Case demo while you wait."

I could share a few things here, but they would be beta's and well, though the beta's work incredibly well, you're better off with finished versions.

About Head Case, yeah, it's very involved. I actually fought against that for guys that just want to jam and go. But, you don't have to use the confusing stuff. The amp "full suite" should be pretty easy to use without any problems. If you do have any problems or questions, let me know and I'll do my best to help you out. For serious issues, you can email Ken the owner at ken@acmebargig.com and he'll get right back to you with answers.

They have been begging me to get involved with the Head Case builder...but I simply don't have the time for it. The little I messed with it, it's a bit out of my league truth be told. LOL! I'm one of those guys that doesn't mind tweaking and shaping tones for as long as it takes...but when you get involved in literally creating tone stacks, different pre-amp tubes, output tubes, text labels, pictures of the amp you're building and all the knobs and stuff that go with it....I sort of lose interest in stuff like that. LOL! So I totally feel you there. The good thing is, Ken broke everything up in modules and threw them in as a part of the package. I just use the full suite these days as I can dial in a tone in seconds.

Quick tip for you when doing the input gain test. If you feel the need for more drive at the gain stage before it hits the sim in this procedure (I liked it better when we had a knob as well as the auto feature for better fine tuning, but I was outvoted on that feature lol) play lighter while it auto-corrects the gain stage. This in turn will give you more input gain before the signal hits the amp, but you'll need to roll the main "amp gain" knob down as well as use more of our noise reduction because you'll have more gain than you ever imagined. If you want less gain at the input gain stage, when doing the auto test, play as hard as you can. This will in create a lower input gain and force you to use more main amp gain and less noise reduction.

Everything else should be fairly easy to navigate though. I'm in the process of creating a video that shows what I do to get good sound out of it in less than 30 seconds without any bells or whistles. When I get around to finishing it, I'll send you a link for it in case it may be helpful to you. :)

-Danny

Danny - That is great advise about setting the input level. Thank you. Makes total sense now that I think about it. That video would be much appreciated! I have only spent a couple hours trying it out but the sounds it has are pretty amazing. I really like the rack mount chorus. Max - Not trying to hijack your thread here. Trying to get that good guitar sound is exactly the path I am on right now too. Danny has been incredibly helpful in assisting me on this journey. Always receptive to what he has to say. Good luck on getting your sound. Dave

maximumpower

i'm a firm believer in capturing the sound the way it is coming off the speaker, and the way it sounds in the room.

in other words, a bit of a 'purist' stance on electric guitar capture.

i will tame sharpness or low end with cuts if they need it....
typically, a rolloff around 75hz and cuts from 2k to 4k....


now, in terms of placement in the mix (which also includes time effects).....
i often times print my effects directly off my guitar rig, because that's they way i want them to sound.


but at least half the time, i'm recording the guitars bone dry.

i will add short slap for 'room' effect, or long delays for spacy effect, or plate reverb if i want depth.

but that's it.

usually what you hear of my guitar tracks, is more or less the way it sounded in front of the cab.

i think if you want tubes, get tubes


otherwise, just get what sounds good to you.
what's the point in having an emulation of something you can easily get to start with?

@Danny:...well, from my end here it is huge sounding. There are  lot of rack effects that I'm still mucking around with it and with my little 2x12 cab that I made up with a pair of Eminence speakers...OY....yep...it be doing it's job.

@dxp:  Not tube amp. 

As far as emulation vs real tube is concerned I only got this one simply because the space I'm in is really not all that conducive to the tube amps I've got now...my little Princeton amp is about the biggest that this room will take...otherwise .....

I made a few changes to get my recorded guitar tone up to snuff.

First thing was to get a better quality microphone. I picked up an AKG C-214 and a short, heavy stand.  I need to record sound clips of vintage and original amps. I'm also using an 8 channel tascam mixer from the 70's. It's the new front end for my Quad Capture. This rig is starting to produce some nice sound. I Just picked up a tweed Bandmaster so I think that will be the first project. I want to experiment with sampling and this is sort of my starter kit.

So I have a couple standard dynamics and a couple of cheap, large diaphragm condenser's. That's my budget spent for this year. Good sound clips could bring me more earnings, so I can justify the expense, but I can't let the GAS get out of control.

in the spectrum of electric guitar recording, i find myself in the middle between live mic'd cabs and software amp sim. (i suppose really, the very far other side is sampling/midi/etc., but let's not go there. )

i think a lot depends on the genre - any distortion guitar-centric music (particularly what the uninitiated would throw in the wide basket of "metal"), tone is king. in that realm, i think the 80/20 rule applies - you can get 80% of the way without mic'ing a live amp+cab in a decent sounding room, and probably not too many people would notice. but if you want to get to home plate then it's time to step away from the computer. that's just my opinion on it, and i don't do metal so i don't mic live cabs.

if you're doing more "mainstream" rock/pop, you can certainly get away with a direct recording approach*. my opinion on this is get a good hardware amp-sim box - i have a vox tonelab ST and i like it better than the pod 2.0 i used previously. but you can get good tone with either one, or something else that makes the tone you want to capture.

either way, as others have said, you play the instrument. i prefer to track it the way i want it to be, and re-track it if i don't like it. post processing is typically just a delay if i don't feel like double-tracking (which i rarely do ). i think it does two things for me:

1. it forces me to be able to play my own music well. no "omg what if i can't ever get this sound again". that's what practice is for.
2. it forces me to focus on the music, rather than the track. what is this track bringing to the music? does this tone inspire me? if the answer is no, then i pick another tone until i get that feeling.

everything you have to create music is a tool. but with all the modern tools, it's very easy to get lost and forget what it is you are doing in the first place: making music. i stepped away from recording for 3 years to learn that lesson.


*you still have to be good. tone is in the fingers, and a well-tuned, well-intoned, well maintained instrument.

@timidi, When you say direct/dry, are you meaning direct into the computer, bypassing the amp altogether?

Ideally I prefer to get the tone I want prior to recording, but, as James noted, sometimes after you get the other instruments you gotta go back and redo it or tweak it. However, I don't mic an amp; I've used Line 6 Toneport for years, just upgraded to PodFarm, which has much better tones, so I'm finding it easier to get the sound I want.

trimph,

the portico II channel strip makes a fine DI here.