Saxon1066
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Re:Brickwall Limiting?
2013/02/23 20:41:19
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Danny Danzi
"When I mix something, I do my best to make sure the mix peaks at -3 dB and do my best to achieve this using the track faders without touching the master bus. If I don't do this and just adjust the master bus fader and say it ends up being the master fader set to -4 dB to achieve a -3 dB peak in a full play of the song, a limiter is not going to get me to -3 dB because the fader is set to -4 dB."
-Danny
I ain't much of an engineer--no credetials, just lots of great gear. I thought we should always keep that master fader at 0, otherwise there will be gain staging problems. (?)
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bitflipper
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Re:Brickwall Limiting?
2013/02/24 10:51:18
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Yes, keep the master fader at zero. 0db, however, is not the goal for your mix. Two different things. If you mix is too hot, you don't adjust the master fader, you adjust the master gain control or the input level on the limiter.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Brickwall Limiting?
2013/02/24 13:55:18
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There's nothing inherently wrong with adjusting any of the bus levels, including the Master bus. In SONAR that bus is still 64bits... you can't really squash the sound.
A rule of thumb, in digital work station mixing, is too avoid adjusting the "Main OUTs" or any of the other hardware outputs as that may result in a loss of resolution in bit depth.
A good reason to never adjust your Master bus level and leave it at "0" is that it seems helpful to maintain consistent gain structure on your output so that you can develop consistencies in how you handle the levels in your tracks and sub buses. This makes it faster and easier to work and get a mix started.
best regards,
mike
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Saxon1066
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Re:Brickwall Limiting?
2013/02/24 19:40:44
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bitflipper
Yes, keep the master fader at zero. 0db, however, is not the goal for your mix. Two different things. If you mix is too hot, you don't adjust the master fader, you adjust the master gain control or the input level on the limiter.
Good advice, bitflipper and mike. Just curious: why is the master gain control different from the master fader for this?
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bitflipper
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Re:Brickwall Limiting?
2013/02/25 10:51:51
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Gain is the level going in to the bus (pre-limiter), volume fader is the final level leaving the bus (post limiter).
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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Saxon1066
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Re:Brickwall Limiting?
2013/02/25 14:57:05
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Got it. In what situations is the master fader useful? Why does it even exist if it should stay at zero? Is that why some control surfaces (like Nucleus) have no master fader?
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bitflipper
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Re:Brickwall Limiting?
2013/02/25 20:42:13
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The only time I ever use the master fader is when I want to turn the whole mix down for monitoring while playing a new part. I suppose it might also be useful if your mix is unmastered and your mastering engineer has requested Xdb of headroom. You could turn it down before exporting.
Most of us master our own material, so we let the limiter dictate the final levels and leave the fader at zero.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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Jay Tee 4303
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Re:Brickwall Limiting?
2013/02/26 10:14:16
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Flanged vocals take a powder in mono? Hmmm.
Overs on the same track?
IBM PC/XT 1 MB RAM 8087 Math Co-Processor 5 Megabyte Seagate Hard Drive Twelvetone Cakewalk Version 2.0
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brconflict
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Re:Brickwall Limiting?
2013/02/26 11:14:18
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I recommend just pulling down each sub-mix fader until the Master buss shows no overs. Solo each submix buss and find the one that kicks the overs in the Master buss. Leave the Master Fader at zero.
Brian Sonar Platinum, Steinberg Wavelab Pro 9, MOTU 24CoreIO w/ low-slew OP-AMP mods and BLA external clock, True P8, Audient ASP008, API 512c, Chandler Germ500, Summit 2ba-221, GAP Pre-73, Peluso 22251, Peluso 2247LE, Mackie HR824, Polk Audio SRS-SDA 2.3tl w/upgraded Soniccraft crossovers and Goertz cables, powered by Pass-X350. All wiring Star-Quad XLR or Monster Cable. Power by Monster Power Signature AVS2000 voltage stabilizer and Signature Pro Power 5100 PowerCenter on a 20A isolation shielded circuit.
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Keni
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Re:Brickwall Limiting?
2013/02/26 12:13:50
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Jay Tee 4303
Flanged vocals take a powder in mono? Hmmm.
Overs on the same track?
I'm using an extreme situation with no original vocal. 100% flange... So I was guessing that it might be phase cancellation of some kind... Funny, as I reduce the width, the vocal level needs to come up quite a bit to be as apparent. So again I'm guessing some issues... But as most of my critiques of the current mixes for this song a that the vocals a too low... This seems to change the situation as I felt they needed to be louder as their width was reduced...? The overs I was having was when I applied then CL to this piece's master... Something I rarely do.... And I'm not doing it here... I've already solved the peak issues in another way and removed the master's limiter.... Keni
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Keni
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Re:Brickwall Limiting?
2013/02/26 12:19:15
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brconflict
I recommend just pulling down each sub-mix fader until the Master buss shows no overs. Solo each submix buss and find the one that kicks the overs in the Master buss. Leave the Master Fader at zero.
Typically this is what I might have done, but I didn't like what the mastering was doing because of 3 somewhat odd peaks... I addressed a number of issues that have moved those and gained another 1.5 db of headroom and a smooth mix to use for masking now... I'm getting close. This has been a tough critter for me in a number of ways and finding satisfaction with the mix/mastering swells with the completion's approach... In a few minutes I will listen to my last work from last night/this morning's session... I may be there! .....? ;-) Keni
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Jay Tee 4303
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Re:Brickwall Limiting?
2013/02/26 20:31:57
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Keni
Jay Tee 4303
Flanged vocals take a powder in mono? Hmmm.
Overs on the same track?
I'm using an extreme situation with no original vocal. 100% flange... So I was guessing that it might be phase cancellation of some kind...
Funny, as I reduce the width, the vocal level needs to come up quite a bit to be as apparent. So again I'm guessing some issues... But as most of my critiques of the current mixes for this song a that the vocals a too low... This seems to change the situation as I felt they needed to be louder as their width was reduced...?
The overs I was having was when I applied then CL to this piece's master... Something I rarely do.... And I'm not doing it here... I've already solved the peak issues in another way and removed the master's limiter....
Keni
Not just cancellation...summation too... perhaps quick enough to get past the attack of your dynamics pro...just a thought. Understand you fixed it, but sup w CL is still a q, right?
IBM PC/XT 1 MB RAM 8087 Math Co-Processor 5 Megabyte Seagate Hard Drive Twelvetone Cakewalk Version 2.0
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Keni
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Re:Brickwall Limiting?
2013/02/27 13:06:40
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Jay Tee 4303
Keni
Jay Tee 4303
Flanged vocals take a powder in mono? Hmmm.
Overs on the same track?
I'm using an extreme situation with no original vocal. 100% flange... So I was guessing that it might be phase cancellation of some kind...
Funny, as I reduce the width, the vocal level needs to come up quite a bit to be as apparent. So again I'm guessing some issues... But as most of my critiques of the current mixes for this song a that the vocals a too low... This seems to change the situation as I felt they needed to be louder as their width was reduced...?
The overs I was having was when I applied then CL to this piece's master... Something I rarely do.... And I'm not doing it here... I've already solved the peak issues in another way and removed the master's limiter....
Keni
Not just cancellation...summation too... perhaps quick enough to get past the attack of your dynamics pro...just a thought. Understand you fixed it, but sup w CL is still a q, right?
Hi Jay Tee 4303... Thanks and yes... You nailed it! I knew when I posted that I'd fix the issues one way or another... I've been doing this a long time and I always "find a way"... ;-) But the issue with CL not catching the peaks as a brickwall is expected to? That remains an issue that I don't understand. I use it to successfully do this in mastering, so why in this other situation is it not catching those peaks? I may never know...? ;-) ...and then there's my confusion as to why it should behave differently pre/post an empty fx bin? I see that others have confirmed this but so far here I had the same problem either way.... and rightfully so. The empty fx bin should be no more than an insert point with line level at each end.... Keni
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Jay Tee 4303
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Re:Brickwall Limiting?
2013/02/27 13:53:21
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"No original vocal...100% flange" could be taken more than one way.
At one extreme, simple time domain alterations, stretching and shortening the original signal, discarding all original so there's no audible phase interaction, just the time domain element.
Other extreme, 100% wet output, with comb filtering, cancellation and summation.
Either way, if any two samples purely sum...the potential over could be as short as the sample rate.
There's a limit to what popular spec A's can show, but it is theoretically possible you have the waveform that will tell us all what the effective attack in CL is, or at least one endpoint on the spectrum of possibility.
Before you dig into any of that...this also may have absolutely nothing to do with your overs or CLs attack. It's also possible the release rate is the culprit but flanging and modelling being what they are, my guess is "attack" or "other".
(Typo)
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Keni
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Re:Brickwall Limiting?
2013/02/27 15:24:31
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Hi JT...
Yes... I'm thinking that as the CL has set attack parameters (probably not quite "auto", eh?) and thus can miss signals that exhibit this...?
it's interesting that I haven't had any problems using it in mastering.... yet? ;-)
As to the flange? 100% wet is the reality and probably a better way of describing it. I have directed the output of these 4 vocal tracks to a bus as summation point and there I've inserted the flanger 100% wet... Followed by a CA2a, QuadEQ rolling off some bottom and enunciating some mids for lyric clarity... and lastly to a (bus) Console Emulator...
This signal is then passed to my Vocal bus where it sums with my background vocals and vocal reverb return (harmonies are actually being processed with the Octave lead vocal to make them as prominent as lead)...
Keni
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