step sequencer versus piano roll view

I have a song.  Yeah, it kinda sucks, but what doesn't these days.  I've used a loop to lay out the song against a bogus drum track, which I intend to delete.  I am trying to use SD3 to create/craft the appropriate drum track, but I am confused as regards trying to do this in piano roll view, or keep slogging away trying to figure out Step Sequencer, which seems to allow greater control over velocity and swing.  Should I press forward and try and learn something new, or quit while I am ahead and try to make Piano Roll work the way I want? 
 
When I take a 40 measure basic MIDI beat, and convert to Step Sequencer, it winds up being 8 measures long.  Is that what it is supposed to do?
 
Is Step Sequencer the "best" tool for working out a drum part?

okee dokee smokey, that is what I figured.  That said, it has been my experience that what "I figured" insofar as Cakewalk has proved to be something I should have looked into further.  It is all a complicated bugger, and I'd not relish re-learning all that I have had to absorb since ProAudio 2 or 3, whatever it was, can't even think back that far.

You know, I just spent 35 minutes writing up a giant bunch of helpful tips for using Step Sequencer, and then my mouse fell of the desk and hit the keyboard and somehow closed my entire Chrome session, NUKING the brilliant and insightful manifesto I was trying to create for you.

I will NOT be retyping it in its initial glory - but will try to enter it back in with fewer words, or perhaps I will skip vowels or something.  Please forgive me.

I happen to use Step Sequencer to create all of my drum clips, but it is truly a matter of personal preference.  Piano Roll View is quite powerful, I just don't really relate to it visually, so I have chosen to use SS instead.

I can offer a few tips on creating drum clips using Step Sequencer, which if you decide to go that route may help you - even if I quit using vowels or verbs at some point in typing this all over again.  :)

1.  If using Step Sequencer to create drum clips, do NOT use a drum map.  Cakewalk made a design choice to NOT have drum maps used for this - although I do not understand why, and lament it.  Anyways, you WILL have great sorrow trying to pull up clips for subsequent editing if you created them with Step Sequencer and a drum map.  There IS a work-around, in that you can convert the clips to a midi track, but just avoid the whole thing by knowing this up front.

This means that you have to know the note numbers for each drum kit piece.  For a given kit, make a little cheat sheet with each drum kit piece and its corresponding note number next to it, and refer to that when entering values for that kit piece in the clip.  It's really no big deal, and if you use the same kit a lot, you can reuse the same cheat sheet for multiple projects.  It only takes a couple of minutes to do, and makes up nicely for not having a drum map.

2.  To quickly create the range of notes displayed in the Step Sequencer clip, needed for your drum kit, do the following:

A)  Delete all rows except one.

B)  For the 1 remaining row, change the note number to the lowest note number needed for your kit.

C)  Now, click on the empty space between the note name and the note number for that 1 remaining row, to select it, and then click on the '+' sign up at the top a whole bunch of times.  Each click on the plus sign will add a new row above the last, in ascending note number order, so you can in just a few seconds, end up with a 2-3 octave bunch of rows, which is generally enough for most kits.  As an alternative, you could enter rows just for each kit piece, but I find that just entering rows using the plus sign to be much faster. 


3)  Figure out the smallest note value needed for the whole clip, such as 1/16 or 1/8 or whatever, and set the Steps Per Beat value accordingly, PRIOR to entering any actual drum beats.  If you try to adjust it after the fact, your brain will explode, because it will leave the entered values where they were originally placed, not adjusting them to the new subdivisions.  This is rhythmic angina, and I think it can be fatal.  :)  The steps per beat is your beat subdivision, so 2 steps per beat means the smallest note value you can have in any beat of the whole clip would be an 1/8th note.  4 steps per beat would allow you to enter 1/16 notes, 8 steps per beat would allow 1/32 notes, etc.   


4.  Step Sequencer was designed to ONLY support a 1/4 note meter base.  This means that to create a clip that SHOULD read as 7/8, you have to essentially create it instead as a clip at 7/4 - which means it will take TWO measures in the track to represent EACH measure of 7/8, AND each measure of 7/4 will playback at HALF the intended speed, so you have to then insert a meter change in the project to change it to 7/4, and you need to insert a tempo change in the project that corresponds to the beginning of that particular drum clip, DOUBLING the song tempo so that the 7/4 measures playback at twice the speed to sound like they are the intended 7/8, AND you then have to remember to insert ANOTHER meter change back to 4/4 at the end of the altered meter section in the project, as well as another tempo change back to the ORIGINAL tempo of the song before you doubled it.  It's quite the pain in the rear.

5.  Subdivisions such as measures that have any triplets means you have to dive the steps per beat into some multiple of 3, so that if any measure in the clip had a triplet you would need to use either 3 or 6 steps per beat to allow you to properly enter a triplet for any particular measure in the clip.  I usually use 6 steps per beat for clips having any triplets, which then allows for 1/16 notes and 1/8 note triplets.  Each triplet of 1/8 notes would be on steps 1, 3, 5, etc.  Don't forget to figure this out PRIOR to entering any drum beats in the clip, or you will regret it (note 3 above)

6.  I cannot type anymore - there might have been a 6, and maybe even a 7 and 8, but this will have to do for now.  I chose to preserve all vowels and consonants, at the expense of how many tips I could retype.  Please forgive me.  :)

You can refer to the Sonar documentation for things like adjusting velocities and timings and all of that sort of thing.

Good luck in any case, and I TRULY hope some of the above helps you, even if it isn't as magnificent as what I had originally written (kidding, of course - I don't know if either set of tips is going to actually help you).

If you would like to have me walk you through any of this, please feel free to shoot me a PM with your contact info and a time to call, and I will do my best to help you as best I can, and of course you can always post any additional questions here in the forum if you would rather.

Bob Bone

@robert_e_bone -
 
Since you are  someone who sequences Bruford's drum parts, I was interested to read your advice on writing drum parts..
 
If that was the short version, having "dropped" the original version, then I can see why you are well suited to laying down his beats.
 
More power to your elbow, Sir. 

I ABOSOLUTELY encourage anyone to work with the available functions within Sonar that make them the most comfortable and productive, also maintaining a low risk-factor for things like loss of data - particularly audio tracks by outside performers, whether they are session players, band members, or whoever.

I am thoroughly enjoying having the flexibility to structure my work flow as it makes sense to me, and X2a has been absolutely my most favorite user interface of all of the Sonars and its predecessors.  With 2 displays, it lays out like a dream come true.

I just never got around to learning to work with the PRV, and the Step Sequencer makes sense to my brain, even with its minor weirdness in design, for a couple of things.  The thing for me is that most of the time I am working with intricate drum parts, like those of Bill Bruford (the finest drummer I have ever heard, and one person I have incredible respect for).  The complexity of these parts, and the absolute need to have these tracked precisely, means that I take my time anyway, and as such seeing them laid out with that horizontal grid makes it easy to spot mistakes visually, prior to even hearing the clips play back.  And, I COMPOSE in odd meters, often with multiple meter changes in alternating cycles, so the visual display of Step Sequencer is very comfortable for me to work with.  

I DO think that if I put the time in to learn to work with editing midi with the Piano Roll View, I believe it would be much quicker to work with - there is just a learning curve and I like the grid display of Step Sequencer so much - I DO hope to get around to it.

Bob Bone

@Bob Bone
I'm with you there about Mr Bruford.  I can see why the Step Sequencer is the perfect tool for programing his "beats".
 
I just admire you for the music you produce.
 
I also compose in odd time signitures, although I am trying to give it up.
 
Old habits die hard..

When I take a 40 measure basic MIDI beat, and convert to Step Sequencer, it winds up being 8 measures long. Is that what it is supposed to do? Is Step Sequencer the "best" tool for working out a drum part?

 
Here's the deal with the step sequencer I don't get either:
 
It has a maximum of 64 bars per instantiate, and also defaults to 16 bars.
Sonar allows to convert a track to Step Sequencer. Process which is  Convert Midi Clip(s)To Step Sequencer
What it does is; it truncates a conversion to the setting of the Step Sequencer to the default of 16 bars. Everything else in the track just "disappears"
Also, when in track view: There is the option to show Step Sequencer. There it only shows the first 64 bars.

robert_e_bone



Here is a youtube link for the all-midi cover of Fainting in Coils.  

What VSTi (s) are you using for the bass?

robert_e_bone

jb101


@robert_e_bone -

Since you are  someone who sequences Bruford's drum parts, I was interested to read your advice on writing drum parts..

If that was the short version, having "dropped" the original version, then I can see why you are well suited to laying down his beats.

More power to your elbow, Sir. 

Since you appear to have awareness of Mr Bruford, I thought I would share something with you.  I am in the processof working up an all midi version of Bill Bruford's 'Fainting in Coils', from the 70's release 'One of a Kind'.


Here is a youtube link for the all-midi cover of Fainting in Coils.  I have a gigantic bunch of work to go - monumental in fact - but I have a bunch of the bass and drums tracked, and it will give you an idea of how the whole thing is coming together - and ALL of this was done with the step secuencer.  For the flute interlude part of the song, I had to work out the fade-ins, by working backwards from the known ending point of the different parts.


The link is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRDPKQYiL0Y

I hope to finish this one in a month or 2.

Bob Bone

what a great piece bob very progressive and what an awesome mix as well.
I really like the way tempo slows down @ 2:57
there is a very long drum ending on this though, is that on purpose?

This has been an interesting thread which will merit rereading.

Combining what Bristol_Jonesey and robert_e_bone have said (both of whom have my deepest respect)
it looks like drum maps are good if you use the PRV but not good if you use the sequencer.

Bob, could you say a bit more about what problems they cause with the sequencer?
Isn't the role of the map just to convert midi notes to instrument names, and remap them ?

you might also want to consider using the arrange view for drums, just drop your sample on an audiotrack

@bitflipper - thanks - I will try that out.

@chuckebaby - The song is a LONG way from being finished.  The drums going on and on at the end is because I have not yet tracked any of the other instruments at that point in the time line.  In actuality, there are keys, bass, and guitar playing at the end, in addition to the drums.  Also, I am missing ALL the leads - both keys and guitar, and I am missing loads of complex keyboard 'stab' parts during the verses - where the keys are doing bends of varying values at different points, and I have to set all of that up.  (And, I have to learn how to play the guitar lead on keyboard, and it happens to be Allan Holdsworth at his best).  Lastly, I have done ZERO mixing, this is just basic levels I set prior to tracking.  There are fades to insert, as well as getting effects/levels/(the whole thing really).

It should sound MIGHTY nice when it is all done.  I am happy you guys like it so far.

And, @Paul P - if a drum map is present when creating clips in step sequencer, various editing anomalies show up in unpredictable fashion, such as double-clicking to pull up a midi drum clip may pull up an empty clip, which may also be of the wrong number of beats, or the wrong steps per beat.  Additionally,it may pull up a clip from some other point in the song, despite explicitly double-clicking on a specific clip to enter edit mode in step sequencer, and it does this with no regard for the Now Time.  Weird things like that.  Tech support let me know they do NOT intend fof folks to create drum clips in Step Sequencer using drum maps, so I stopped doing it, partly because they told me that, and because of all of the weirdness in attempting to edit, as I described here.

Bob Bone

Timeking


 
Is Step Sequencer the "best" tool for working out a drum part?

IMO by far the best method is picking the most suitable MIDI loops and editing the details in piano roll.
The second best IMO  is recording with keyboard (or drum pads) and editing in Piano Roll. That way you can really create your own live groove.

As I had posted earlier, I really DO intend to spend some time working with the PRV, and I do believe it to more than likely be faster at editing some things.  I think that having some skill at using both is most likely the best place to end up, so that the needs of a particular clip can be met with whichever tool will match up best to those needs.

I think many of my future projects may well have a mixture of clips created and/or edited with both Step Sequencer and Piano Roll View.

Bob Bone

PRV ALL the way here...

SS doesnt cut it for me when using swing, time sig changes, unquantized beats, complex velocity shifts etc etc.....