Imput impedence and ribbon mics

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jbow
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2013/03/30 21:22:48 (permalink)

Imput impedence and ribbon mics

I just came across this. http://www.sweetwater.com/insync/roland-octa-capture-preamp-input-impedance/
 
Does this mean that possibly inputs 7/8 on the OC will work well with a ribbon mic without adding more voltage or a Fethead to block the voltage from reaching the ribbon mic? I don't want to make assumptions that might damage a ribbon... but I have never heard about this before now.
 
Anyone know? Thanks...
 
J

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    quantumeffect
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    Re:Imput impedence and ribbon mics 2013/03/30 21:50:21 (permalink)

    Dave

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    The Maillard Reaction
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    Re:Imput impedence and ribbon mics 2013/03/31 09:03:20 (permalink)


    I enjoyed the casual frankness of the Royer Labs page that Dave linked too:

    http://www.royerlabs.com/preampconsiderations.html

    A ribbon mic should work very well in either the OctaCapture 5kohm inputs or the 10kOhm inputs. 

    If it does not work well... blame it on the mic, and don't expect it to work any better in some other input impedance choice.


    Ribbon mics were around for nearly a century, sounding great, before someone figured out they could sell people who didn't have much experience with ribbon mics on the idea that ribbon mic technology requires extra accessories and a special ribbon mic preamp. 


    Any input between 1.5kOhm to 20kOhm should work real good. If you go below 1.5kOhm you can anticipate that, at some low value, an effect of high frequency attenuation will occur and the sound will seem dull.


    I think the whole ribbon accessory business is based on the tendency of people to search for technological solutions to augment sub par performance. If you can shove some vibrant music towards a ribbon mic, most will do a great job of transducing it into the recorder for you. You don't really need anything else... and the extra stuff isn't going to help if you can't get it right before the sound tickles the ribbon.


    That stuff in the description is just add copy drivel... they think it makes them look smart, but it is a dumb marketing trick that makes otherwise smart customers feel dumb when the vendors chooses to slather make believe on the sales pitch. 

    More often than not, customers are turned off when they are left confused and it is another example of how opting for caveman marketing rather than treating a customer with the kind of respect that fosters a long term business relationship can forestall sales.


    The best way to present the 8 inputs on the Octa Capture is much simpler than the current practice of confusing people with make believe. I'd suggest that a simple statement like, "8 great sounding mic inputs" could get the job done and leave customers with an optimism and eagerness to give the unit a try. 

    But Noooooooooooooooooo... someone just had to show off that they went to tech school and learned some misinformation about ribbon mics and that they couldn't resist including make-believe-speak in the ad copy.

    I think it makes the effort to promote what appears to be a very nice piece of hardware seem cheezy and amateurish.

    Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe they'll sell a whole bunch of them to people who plan on buying a ribbon mic some day.

    Roland just vaporized 6.8% of it's common stock in an effort to make it appear that it's stock value has stabilized.

    http://www.roland.com/ir/pdf/news/20130322.pdf


    Roland has this wonderful little hard ware unit called the OctaCapture, but no one seems to know how to sell it because some one thinks we are all a bunch of dummies. Good luck Roland.



    best regards,
    mike



    post edited by mike_mccue - 2013/03/31 09:28:08


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    The Maillard Reaction
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    Re:Imput impedence and ribbon mics 2013/03/31 10:49:24 (permalink)


    Here is an example of how the market speak introduces an awareness of uncertainty.

    I downloaded the Octa Capture manual and found this statement on page 13:

    XLR input jacks 7 and 8 support high input levels of +16 dBu. You’ll have plenty of headroom even
    when using microphones to record loud sources such as a bass drum.


    Which suggest to me that the extra 5k impedance on inputs 7 and 8 is actually 5k of resistance soldered in between so as to function as a pad as a work around for the relatively low head room inputs on 1 through 6. Which makes me wonder how a input with decreased sensitivity, which Roland presents as a virtue when recording loud sound sources, can also be ideal for a ribbon mic. Ribbon mics appreciate pre amps with good sensitivity so that quiet sound sources can be made to seem louder.

    So which is it?

    Aw heck... it just doesn't matter for most practical purposes. :-)


    BTW, the Octa Capture has discreet 48vDC switching... so you can turn it off on the channels you don't want it on. That's a nice feature.


    best regards,
    mike


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    quantumeffect
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    Re:Imput impedence and ribbon mics 2013/03/31 12:59:59 (permalink)
    BTW, the Octa Capture has discreet 48vDC switching... so you can turn it off on the channels you don't want it on. That's a nice feature.


    I just checked the specs on my Grace 501M (it is a great pre for ribbons ... it has a 10 to 75 dB gain range).  When my Grace 501M is in "Ribbon Mode" it:

    "bypasses the input decoupling capacitors and deactivates 48V phantom to protect delicate ribbon mics from damage"

    ... but it also also increases the impedance from 8.1 to 20K.

    Dave

    8.5 PE 64, i7 Studio Cat, Delta 1010, GMS and Ludwig Drums, Paiste Cymbals

    "Everyone knows rock n' roll attained perfection in 1974. It's a scientific fact." H. Simpson

    "His chops are too righteous."  Plankton during Sponge Bob's guitar solo 
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    The Maillard Reaction
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    Re:Imput impedence and ribbon mics 2013/03/31 13:12:07 (permalink)


    :-)

    It can do that because there is no pesky transformer.

    :-)



    My Rupert Neve Designs 5012s have similar high input impedance values. They do it by putting an active gain stage before the *tone shaping* "input" transformer.

    Mr. Neve suggest that a layout such as that gives you the best of both worlds.


    best regards,
    mike


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    bapu
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    Re:Imput impedence and ribbon mics 2013/03/31 14:06:48 (permalink)
    mike_mccue

    Ribbon mics were around for nearly a century, sounding great, before someone figured out they could sell people who didn't have much experience with ribbon mics on the idea that ribbon mic technology requires extra accessories and a special ribbon mic preamp. 

    best regards,
    mike

    IIRC the P-Solo mic pre is the same price whether you get the "ribbon" version or not. My Grace m-101 comes with a button. That's about all the "extra" I can handle.
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    The Maillard Reaction
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    Re:Imput impedence and ribbon mics 2013/03/31 14:40:38 (permalink)


    In the case of the Grace it simply removes stuff that is only required for the phantom power.

    It seems real sensible... as no one thinks the coupling caps are a great idea and when you don't need them there is no need to use them. 

    That feature will work great with your SM57 collection too!


    best regards,
    mike

    post edited by mike_mccue - 2013/03/31 14:43:04


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    jbow
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    Re:Imput impedence and ribbon mics 2013/03/31 17:02:28 (permalink)
    A ribbon mic should work very well in either the OctaCapture 5kohm inputs or the 10kOhm inputs.

     
    Thanks Mike. That and remembering to NOT use phantom power is pretty much all I need to know. I am going to try it on a guitar amp, acoustic guitar, and vocals. If it does not work well on the AC or vocals I will spring for the Fethead, it seem to be the cheapest solution... but really, I expect it to work fine.
     
    The rest of the info isn't something I need and confused me a bit at first... but thanks.
     
    @ Dave: Thanks for the interesting links.
     
    @ Bapu: Thanks for the info. Grace HW is over my budget right now. We are trying to get a rental property and a commercial property on conventional loans and I think it is almost done. We've been with a bank that has a rep for bleeding folks as long as they are upside down, renewing 2 year loans, then once one makes enough payments so that the loan is no longer in the bank's loss column, the bank calls the whole thing due when one of the two year terms mature. My wife is a CPA and has seen them absolutely screw several people who were "stand up people" who kept their word. They took one guy's long haul Semi once he got it well in the black... and the government encourages it by making it profitable for the bank to do this to people, using our tax dollars to screw us. SO... once we are away from this particular bank and have a 15 year note on both of thos properties I will be able to spend a little more. I can't wait. I appreciate ALL the help I get here even if I don't understand all of it, I will keep on until I DO.
    I KNOW I will need a good bass track sooner or later.
     
    Thanks again everyone. You guys are the best and remember Bapu, this place will likely die without you so find time to post..
     
    I also have a pre Shure Astatic JT-30 that I am getting a cable for next week. I have had it for as long as I can remember. I think it was used as a shortwave radio mic in the 50s or 60s. It should be interesting
     
    Julien
     
     
     
     

    Sonar Platinum
    Studiocat Pro 16G RAM (some bells and whistles)
    HP Pavilion dm4 1165-dx (i5)-8G RAM
    Octa-Capture
    KRK Rokit-8s
    MIDI keyboards...
    Control Pad
    mics. 
    I HATE THIS CMPUTER KEYBARD!
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