Crackling like old vinyl record

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fanton
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2013/04/03 03:43:26 (permalink)

Crackling like old vinyl record

 Hi, I am running Sonar X2 Studio under Windows 7/64 Home Premium SP1, double core Intel 2.93GHz CPU with 8GB RAM. The soundcard is a M-Audio Delta AP-192. I have written a number of MIDI files with 2-16 instruments, mostly playing TTS1 instruments. When playing back, I can hear occasional crackling sounds very similar to a scratch on a vinyl record, but only intermittently. They don't occur at the same position on repeated playbacks either. Is there any setting I could safely try to play with to kill those soundbugs? Fritz
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    fitzj
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    Re:Crackling like old vinyl record 2013/04/03 05:10:53 (permalink)
    Check the latency on your sound card or audio device. What drivers are you using Asio or WDM?
    #2
    Sir Les
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    Re:Crackling like old vinyl record 2013/04/03 05:14:32 (permalink)
    How is your pc setup?

    I ask cause this could be a shared  irq problem ,or  just something like buffer settings.... 

    It is important to try to insure no irq's share with your audio device, that windows seems to like to do...if running win 7, you can no longer set irq's.

    So the only way to get this done right before any software setup , is to use the bios and turn off redundant devices.

    If you have a audio interface...type firewire/usb?...You do not need onboard audio....so you could turn that off in bois, freeing up that irq.
    Also com ports if not in use can also be turned off.

    What kind of mouse and keyboard in use? USB?...then perhaps turning off serial ports as well may help relieve some sharing of IRQs.

    That said, ..setting up Win 7...tweaks?...turn off screen savers, and such sleep or hibernate features.
    power settings , turn off monitor = never...advance settings Look into the hard drive tab and select to never turn off hard drives,
    There are more setting to fiddle with...

    After doing a check/setup on power managements profiles..save .

    Setting up buffers/sample rates in software properly is dependant on bit rates you use I guess...

    Someone else might have more to offer..

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    markyzno
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    Re:Crackling like old vinyl record 2013/04/03 05:43:04 (permalink)
    sounds like a sample rate clash.....
    What sample rate is windows using and what sample rate is your project set to in Sonar and what sample rate is the M-Audio set to?


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    #4
    fanton
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    Re:Crackling like old vinyl record 2013/04/03 05:44:05 (permalink)
    Thank you for your replies. I have tried all available drivers (WDM/KS, WASAPI, ASIO, MME/32-bit), currently I am using WASAPI; I have tried changing buffer numbers, latency - all to no effect, the random glitches still occur. The on-board sound device is turned off, unused serial ports as well. Any ideas left? Fritz
    #5
    Sir Les
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    Re:Crackling like old vinyl record 2013/04/03 05:57:41 (permalink)
    Check the Shared IRQ List in the system tools/system info/shared tab..
    See where or What Win has done with your audio device, and what it is being shared with...perhaps ?... Moving the card physically...change slots might change the shared profile?

    As IRQ are automatically shared on motherboards...You might need to read the manual, and find a way to select the best slot that way...perhaps?
    Video card and certain slots share...gotta root that out...and solve for it....I guess? 

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    #6
    Freex
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    Re:Crackling like old vinyl record 2013/04/03 06:07:09 (permalink)
    have you tried running "DCP latency checher"? (google it, download it, could reveal something)

    could be your network causing thge problems, have you tried disabling it while you use the pc for music?


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    daveny5
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    Re:Crackling like old vinyl record 2013/04/03 14:33:53 (permalink)
    Make sure you're using ASIO mode.

    Are you using 24 bit depth and 44.1 KHz sample rate? 

    Make sure the onboard soundcard is not selected in Sonar. 

    Dave
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    #8
    slartabartfast
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    Re:Crackling like old vinyl record 2013/04/03 16:30:30 (permalink)
    crackling sounds very similar to a scratch on a vinyl record, but only intermittently. They don't occur at the same position on repeated playbacks either.



    People seem to think you are hearing dropouts. One would expect that to be more consistent as the high demand hits at the same point in every run through. Unless there is an intermittent background process that is stealing CPU cycles--see the DPC latency checker suggestion.

    Could it be digital clipping? Again would expect it to be consistently in the same place, and show up as flattened wave forms or clipping indicator.

    Could it be electrical "static"/micro-arcing due to bad connections or interference? That should show up intermittently on everything you play through that setup.

    #9
    Rick O Shay
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    Re:Crackling like old vinyl record 2013/04/03 18:07:57 (permalink)
    I had a similar problem with one of my computers. I found that my sound card was sharing an IRQ with an ethernet card I had installed. After trying a bunch of things I found that going into the properties of the ethernet card and disabling it while I was using Sonar got rid of the intermittent static/crackling problem.
    #10
    fanton
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    Re:Crackling like old vinyl record 2013/04/04 06:52:07 (permalink)
    Cutting the network had no effect, yes I'm running at 44.1/24, internal soundcard is deselected. When I export MIDI files as *.wav or *.mp3, the glitches are still there, but of course, now they occur in exactly the same place each time. Fritz
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    daveny5
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    Re:Crackling like old vinyl record 2013/04/04 08:38:04 (permalink)
    Were the glitches recorded on the track? Look at the waveform to determine that. If so, there's no way to remove them. Make sure your input levels don't go over 0dB. What is your ASIO buffer size? Should start with 256 samples or 128. The lower the better, but if you go too low, you'll get noise.

    Dave
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    #12
    stevec
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    Re:Crackling like old vinyl record 2013/04/04 09:11:00 (permalink)
    Are you using any other plugins aside from TTS1?   A demo perhaps?    They have a tendency to insert white noise at somewhat regular intervals.
     

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    #13
    fanton
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    Re:Crackling like old vinyl record 2013/04/04 11:30:04 (permalink)
     I am talking of MIDI tracks - there are no wave detailed profiles. The glitches become located and permanent when I export MIDI to Audio.
    #14
    fanton
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    Re:Crackling like old vinyl record 2013/04/04 11:32:50 (permalink)
     No, I am using a clean fully licensed Studio edition and the glitches occur both in the case of a single TTS1 synth present as well as one TTS1 and one other (e.g. Cakewalk Sound Center).
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    slartabartfast
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    Re:Crackling like old vinyl record 2013/04/04 13:56:56 (permalink)
    When I export MIDI files as *.wav or *.mp3, the glitches are still there, but of course, now they occur in exactly the same place each time.



    OK so that means that the problem is almost certainly in the digital realm. If it were an electrical problem with connection between your interface and speakers for example, it would not occur on an export.


    btw you are not exporting MIDI files. MIDI files are data that are used to control the synth. What you are exporting are audio files.


    You may be able to learn quite a bit by looking at those audio files inside Sonar. If you zoom in on the wave form, you can look at individual samples. Digital clipping will show as a flattening of the peak when the abnormal sound occurs. Dropouts will often show as a break in the continuity of the wave form.
    #16
    fanton
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    Re:Crackling like old vinyl record 2013/04/05 05:39:20 (permalink)
    I have re-imported a *.wav file into Sonar to look at the waveform. Even at maximum magnification, I could not find any visible irregularity. What I find very hard to believe is that a fairly powerful system and a standard SONAR configuration are having problems reproducing even simple MIDI-files (2 instruments only). If it were a "capacity"-problem of any sort, it should get worse with more complex MIDI-files - which it doesn't. I have now tried the simplest possible setup: One track, one synth and an instrument with a continuous tone. I press a key on the keyboard controller and the glitches randomly occur as before, they appear to be a combination between a very short dropout and a short scratchy/clicking noise. Fritz
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    Tom Riggs
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    Re:Crackling like old vinyl record 2013/04/05 07:21:59 (permalink)
    I have heard others complain about the m-audio cards recently. Check to see if you have the most current drivers. Also check the m-audio control panel (I've forgotten its name). Are you using any spdif connections? This sounds like the card is going out of sync briefly. Also check the playback and recording masters that sonar is using. Good luck.

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    daveny5
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    Re:Crackling like old vinyl record 2013/04/05 09:23:28 (permalink)

    I am talking of MIDI tracks - there are no wave detailed profiles. The glitches become located and permanent when I export MIDI to Audio



    Why don't you select the MIDI track and the corresponding softsynth track and do a Bounce to Tracks and see if the glitches show up in the resulting audio track. Maybe that may give you a clue to the issue. 

    What do you have the # of samples set to in the ASIO control panel for the AP192? That's an important setting.


    I agree you shouldn't be having an issue, but since you are the only one having this problem, its not a bug. It has to do with your setup. We just have to figure it out and correct it. 

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    #19
    djtrailmixxx
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    Re:Crackling like old vinyl record 2013/04/05 11:13:42 (permalink)
    Are you overdriving the output of the synth?

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    fanton
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    Re:Suspended - not solved: Crackling like old vinyl record 2013/04/05 12:31:08 (permalink)
     after bouncing to track, I get intermittent glitches on the audio track as well. I have tried several settings for the AP 192 (128, 256, 512), no difference. No, I am not overdriving the synth, it stays well within the safe zone. My output is purely analog from the breakout bundle of the sound card (2 mono TRS Connectors) to the woofer/amp (2 x RCA).
    post edited by fanton - 2013/04/08 05:50:53
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    slartabartfast
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    Re:Crackling like old vinyl record 2013/04/05 17:43:26 (permalink)
     after bouncing to track, I get intermittent glitches on the audio track as well



    Your physical audio interface and your outboard connections are not involved in bouncing a softsynth to an audio track within Sonar. That operation should basically just be calculating and recording the result. If the 'glitches' are present at fixed points in the bounced audio, the problem is in Sonar, the plugin or the computer. Aside from potential problems if you are using the audio interface as your master clock source and there are problems with that clock, I can't see how the interface would be involved. You could try changing the clock source and see if that has any effect.


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    #22
    lorneyb2
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    Re:Crackling like old vinyl record 2013/04/05 20:46:05 (permalink)
    If the re-imported waveform didn't show any abnormalities then you may be looking at a physical problem like a speaker cable or power cord to the speakers.  To test copy wavefile to CD/Ipod or other device and playback on a different system thats does not use the speakers your are currently monitoring with.   Another thing to try would be to unplug 1 speaker at a time to isolate if there is a problem with 1 speaker.

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    soens
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    Re:Crackling like old vinyl record 2013/04/05 21:27:46 (permalink)
    So what you're saying is the reason old records crackle is due to incorrect latency between the vinyl and needle? Or does the cartridge output need adjusting?

    I'm so confused!

    Not really.
    #24
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