Grant Barker
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Soundcard + Questions from first time DAW user
Hi all, I'm building a new PC and will be getting Sonar X2 Producer, which will be my first ever DAW. I intend to get the A-800PRO which will also be my first (midi) keyboard. The PC will be a Gigabyte Z77X-UP7, i7 3770K, 32 Gigs RAM, SSDs, HDs, etc. I need advice with the Sound stuff please. What do you recommend I should get for joining the A-800 with the PC? (soundcard/midi interface) I only use headphones (MDR-7506) and would like the least latency for the A-800 and the best sound for the headphones I have. I do have a budget, but don't mind waiting a couple of months for better gear. ps. If I get Sonar X2 before the A-800PRO, is there a virtual keyboard within Sonar we can play around with in the meantime? Thanks for any advice.
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tomixornot
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Re:Soundcard + Questions from first time DAW user
2013/04/30 06:34:33
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Welcome to the forum. You did not mentioned how many inputs you required for the sound card. I get good performance from the Roland Quad Capture (on the lower end - as in the number of inputs count) or you might want to go for the latest Studio Capture. For some reason, I don't recommend the Octa Capture (apology to the Octa Capture owners here.. just my personal opinion). On the upper end, you may want to check out RME - the USB interface has better performance. Or the PCI-e version is even better. I'm personally looking into the RME options for my next DAW PC upgrade (still a long way to go).
post edited by tomixornot - 2013/04/30 06:39:21
Albert i7 2600K @ 3.40GHz / MB Intel DP67BG / 16GB Ram- ADATA 250GB SSD (Boot)- Samsung Spinpoint F1 1TB HDD (Samples)Audio interface : Motu 828 MK ii i7 6700K @ 4.00GHz / MB Asrock Z170 / 16GB Ram- Samsung EVO 850 120GB / 500 GB SSD Audio interface : Roland Quad Capture Win 10 Pro / Sonar Platinum
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AT
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Re:Soundcard + Questions from first time DAW user
2013/04/30 10:08:53
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Welcome to the forum, Grant. As to what interface to buy - Cake is part of Roland so they are an obvious choice. Focusrite is another company that a lot of people here use successfully. I use a TC Konnect, but that is firewire only, and you probably want an USB for future compatibility. Almost any interface should work, and there isn't really a spit's worth of difference between hardware at the low end of the scale. And most have stable drivers, and that is what you are looking for - unless you are into tech servicing more than making music. So figure out how much you have to spend and realize that there is a good chance you might end up needed more inputs/outputs than you think at first. A good safety measure is to get an interface w/ ADAT expansion. That allows you to add 8 or more AD/DA channels (or more) later. The ADAT port itself is pretty cheap, tho usually the next step up from a basic stereo in/out interface. The other thing to realize is most interfaces will work fine. But since PCs components are all over the place, your #1 pick just might not work w/ your computer. Unlikely, but possible. And it can be a bear to get it working. So have at least 2 different interfaces picked out and buy from a place that will let you return and exchange. If the Roland doesn't work - won't connect to your computer, it is much easier to exchange it for a Focusrite than to spend the next week cussing and spitting rather than making music (been there, done that). If you have the money, it is wise to buy the best quality you can - without missing the rent or getting a divorce. RME, Lynx and TC are the next step up soundwise, tho you can get "broadcast quality" from the cheaper lines, too. Some other things other than ADAT to look for are inserts, so you can, well, insert analog hardware after the interface preamp but before conversion (or a better preamp). 4 outputs are nice for the same reason - you can send out a signal to hardware on 3/4, record the processed signal back to SONAR and listen to it via 1/2 main outputs. None of that is really necessary, but nice to have. Good hunting. @
https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome http://www.bnoir-film.com/ there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
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bitflipper
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Re:Soundcard + Questions from first time DAW user
2013/04/30 12:35:53
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The audio interface's contribution to overall latency is small, and there is perhaps a 1ms difference between a cheap one and a top-of-the-line model. A better criterion for choosing a soundcard manufacturer is the company's reputation for solid drivers and rapid bug fixes. RME ranks very high in that department. The good news is that all modern audio interfaces are really quite good! Even the little $5 one built into your motherboard is an amazing piece of technology (although you probably don't want to use it for serious audio production). First and foremost, choose an interface that has the features you want. Number of inputs, front vs. rear-mounted connectors, line vs. mic inputs, phantom power, number of outputs, support for MIDI, S/PDIF and maybe ADAT, zero-latency monitoring, number and placement of headphone outputs, maybe supported sample rates, maybe built-in DSP. Start with how many inputs you need, how many of them should be line versus mic/line combos, and how many need phantom power. Figure out how many channels you expect to record simultaneously (e.g. will you ever record an acoustic drum kit?) and how many things you might want to keep plugged in all the time (e.g. multiple synthesizers). It's a hassle getting behind the interface to plug and unplug devices, especially if you mount it in a rack. I prefer to keep most things plugged in all the time, which requires many inputs even if they're not all used at once. Then think about how many outputs you need. Even though you only use headphones now, eventually you're probably going to want some quality speakers, maybe even two pairs, or someday need to route to a PA system for rehearsals. You may also want to set up separate headphone mixes, which will require separate outputs. I wouldn't buy an interface with fewer than 4 outputs. Mine has 10, although I've never used more than 6. Since you're using a MIDI controller, you'll want an interface that accepts either 5-pin DIN or USB for MIDI, preferably both. I have 6 MIDI controllers and prefer DIN connections, so I've added a MIDI matrix so I can have them all plugged in all the time and can route them any way I like. Probably not something you need today, but you never know. How the interface connects to your computer is a consideration, too. Firewire was the standard for a long time because of its better efficiency relative to USB. However, many computers do not have a Firewire interface but all of them have USB. If you go with USB, check how many ports your computer has. You can use them all up pretty easily, and you don't want to use hubs if you can avoid it. Buying an add-on Firewire card might make sense. Note that many of the newer interfaces support both Firewire and USB, a nice feature. You'll have to decide between PCIe or external (Firewire or USB). PCIe cards offer the lowest latency, but introduce their own set of potential problems. PCIe cards don't have room for all the I/O connections you'll need, so they typically have a breakout box or cable harness. The best solution, IMO, is a rack-mountable breakout box with a single cable between card and box. Multi-headed cables add to clutter behind the computer and can be a hassle to change connections. PCIe cards, of course, also require a free slot that's not immediately adjacent to noisy devices. They are obviously not an option for laptop users, but may also not be possible with some compact form factors with limited slots. PCIe cards are also more prone to heat-related problems, add to the draw on your power supply, are subject to IRQ conflicts and are more difficult to install and swap out. Most lack the front-panel controls that external interfaces have for setting sample rate, bit depth, phantom power and channel enables. Make sure your interface supports S/PDIF, even if you have no need for it right now. It adds little to the cost of the device, but if the day comes when you realize you need it, you don't want to have to buy a new interface to get it. There are two types of S/PDIF connections: RF and optical (also called TOSLink). The former uses RCA connectors and is the more common of the two for prosumer gear; the latter allows longer cable runs but may not be compatible with all your devices, requiring a converter. I'd recommend going with RCA connectors. Some interfaces have features you probably never thought you'd need. Zero-latency monitoring is one, and most interfaces offer it. Make sure yours does, too. Another feature you might not have thought of is an effects loop. This allows you to insert things like reverbs and compressors into the signal chain. Another feature you didn't know you needed: onboard DSP. This provides effects such as reverb, echo, phaser, and compression. If this is a factor in your decision, make sure the device gives you the option of monitoring effects without recording them. Then there's sample rate and bit depth. All of the better units support 24-bit recording and the most common sample rates (44.1KHz, 48KHz and 96KHz). However, some have restrictions when using 96KHz. Many interfaces proudly advertise 192KHz capability, but this is a non-consideration. Nobody who understands what they're doing records at 192KHz. Don't assume that a 192KHz-capable device is higher quality than one limited to 96KHz. Oh, cheez whiz, I'm getting overly verbose. Who do I think I am, Danny Danzi? I'll stop here and just reiterate what's been said above: choose your card based on features first.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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AT
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Re:Soundcard + Questions from first time DAW user
2013/04/30 16:53:31
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Verbose but good, bit. :-)
https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome http://www.bnoir-film.com/ there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
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Goddard
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Re:Soundcard + Questions from first time DAW user
2013/04/30 18:34:11
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Grant Barker
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Re:Soundcard + Questions from first time DAW user
2013/05/01 10:41:21
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tomixornot, AT, bitflipper and Goddard, thanks a lot for the great info. Thanks also for writing so much (points more at bitflipper) and going into detail too. I have the day off tomorrow, so I'll have a reread of this thread then, and clarify a couple of things probably. Thanks again.
post edited by Grant Barker - 2013/05/01 10:42:25
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Grant Barker
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Re:Soundcard + Questions from first time DAW user
2013/05/01 23:43:24
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tomixornot: You did not mentioned how many inputs you required for the sound card.. Thanks. At the moment, I'll only need to plug in the midi keyboard. That probably doesn't sound very ambitious, but it's all about the PC and keyboard at the moment. I'm interested in a microphone setup too, but for unrelated YouTube stuff this year. The Quad Capture looks nice. I'm not too sure how far out I should push the boat really, this soon to be my first time with a DAW. The UM-ONE midi interface looks to be simple enough. I'm not sure about any USB3 advantages at this stage - checking out the RME stuff you mentioned. The fastest interface is appealing for anything I plug inside the PC. If that is PCI-e, then that kind of inspires me to look in that direction too. AT: As to what interface to buy - Cake is part of Roland so they are an obvious choice. Focusrite is another company that a lot of people here use successfully. I use a TC Konnect, but that is firewire only, and you probably want an USB for future compatibility.. Thanks. One of those references allowed me to see a small and nice microphone package. I'd actually appreciate a decent microphone for talking on YouTube (for unrelated future stuff). So to have a nice little box or setup that allows my midi connections and a microphone connection is also quite appealing. bitflipper: The audio interface's contribution to overall latency is small, and there is perhaps a 1ms difference between a cheap one and a top-of-the-line model. A better criterion for choosing a soundcard manufacturer is the company's reputation for solid drivers and rapid bug fixes. RME ranks very high in that department. The good news is that all modern audio interfaces are really quite good! Even the little $5 one built into your motherboard is an amazing piece of technology (although you probably don't want to use it for serious audio production). First and foremost, choose an interface that has the features you want. Number of inputs, front vs. rear-mounted connectors, line vs. mic inputs, phantom power, number of outputs, support for MIDI, S/PDIF and maybe ADAT, zero-latency monitoring, number and placement of headphone outputs, maybe supported sample rates, maybe built-in DSP.. Thanks. It's good to focus on the main points of consideration. So far, thanks to others here too, I expect just the midi from the keyboard and a decent microphone are my focusses at the moment. I didn't expect to have any external boxes sitting on my desk, but if something comes recommended I'll definitely consider it. If you don't mind I have another noob question for anyone please? Are the midi plugs/sockets the way to go, or is USB superior? Or are they completely unrelated as far as the picture on the link is concerned? Goddard: Assuming you will be playing virtual instruments (softsynths) and/or using DSP fx plug-ins, I'd recommend reading up a bit here before purchasing an audio interface: And see this past forum thread wrt virtual MIDI keyboards: Thanks for the links. Interesting reading. As a beginner (but someone who shivers when he hears a decent synth or pad) I expect latency to not be too much of a focus, if I get the best thing I can for my limited ambitions at this stage. Those virtual keyboards look simple, but it's nice to know they're available. Thanks for the welcome and in-depth posts. I feel a bit like I accidentally sat down at the advanced table and my noob status isn't yet worthy of such large replies. If I say I'm not sure about anything (above), it's not meant to question anyone or any comments. It's just that this audio stuff is all new to me at the moment. Thanks again.
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AT
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Re:Soundcard + Questions from first time DAW user
2013/05/02 11:00:31
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Grant, a couple of points. Just because you only want to record a mic and your keyboard doesn't mean you shouldn't get a unit w/ more in/outs. You can be penny wise and dollar dumb if you decide you do need a bigger interface next year. And extra $100 today may save you from spending $400 next year if you outgrow your system. And cheapish interfaces are more trouble to sell than the money you'll get from them. I have one old 8 channel interface that is basically a line mixer today and simply let a worthy band "borrow" (read give) a presonus firepod after trying to sell it locally. If your keyboard suits you - fine. But you'll find Sonar Producer chock full of synths - drum synths and a couple of really nice synth synths as well as rompler. Make sure your interface has midi in/out so you can use your keyboard to play those (if it doesn't have USB midi). Most hardware synths are great for bread and butter sounds, but you'll end up using Session Drums for drums, I imagine, and Z3ta for hard core synths and DimPro (a rompler) for some of the spacey sounds it also has. Looking to do some legiti lines like in 2001? Covered. Along w/ a 1000 other sounds. So, it is better to spend a few extra bucks to future proof yourself. @
https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome http://www.bnoir-film.com/ there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
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bitflipper
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Re:Soundcard + Questions from first time DAW user
2013/05/02 14:33:48
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Are the midi plugs/sockets the way to go, or is USB superior? USB may allow you to also power your MIDI controller, avoiding a wall-wart. USB is compatible with almost any computer, including laptops. USB uses cables you can buy anywhere. USB is more prone to timing issues. USB is more likely to have driver issues, IRQ conflicts and other complications. You may not have enough USB ports on your computer, or they may be USB3 ports and incompatible with USB2 devices. USB cables can be no longer than 5 meters in length. Cheap USB cables can cause interference in other devices. USB may require a computer to be useful, IOW you can't take just your keyboard and a synth module to a live gig and connect them via USB without a laptop. DIN cables can be 100' long. They are inherently rugged and reliable. You can daisy-chain multiple devices with them. They are almost impervious to interference. Not all MIDI controllers have DIN connectors, so if you have a cheap entry-level keyboard USB may be your only option.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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