Mic a trombone/trumpet?

So, I know the sound comes out of one hole on these kinds of instruments, so direction isn't a problem. I'm mainly wondering about distance. How close should the mic be- not inside the bell, right? 
I'll really need help! Also if possible, a bit on micing woodwinds like sax and flute, too?

Here is a tip that most books and how to guides get wrong: Nothing comes out of the bell except distortion.  You should always mic off axis from the bell.  That means above or to the side of the instrument pointing at the body.  For a pop sound you can get close 1-2 feet.  But for a more refined, natural sound, 6+ feet is a better idea.    Ribbons are great for this, or very high spl capable condensers if recording at a distance.  Cheaper condenser mics tend to distort easily on trumpet.  It is also a good idea to cut most of the noise above 15kHz in post,  the harmonics of a trumpet rarely go past 13kHz but the noise sure does. 

For flute, place a mic about 3 feet above the players head at the side of the head joint.  You can mic from behind to minimize the breaths that flute players hate to hear in their recordings. 

Sax is easy, just point a mic at it anywhere a couple feet away.  Avoid getting too close to the bell. 

Head joint?

whoa, all this stuff seems pretty comprehensive of the subject! Thanks, guys. I do think it'd be tough for myself to secure a ribbon mic real soon. 
In any case, I'll be looking more into this stuff. 
Thanks again, guys!

Read this too it might help:  http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar08/articles/qa0308_5.htm 

Sorry but that article seems like a load of rubbish.  Nothing above 4kHz off axis!??


For and example, and there are plenty, here is a video of a recording of Alison Balsom in a Classical context.


You can see the spot mics clearly.  Looks like a couple of AB Neumanns with a Coles 4038 pair above  and in front of the trumpet, and way off axis from the bell.  And a C414 directly to the side (which is a very popular technique).   Tell me if it sounds like it is missing highs.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ds_5cLu4FUk

It was a really sweet sounding trumpet. Wow, she has great tone and such a gentle feel. Wow.

It wouldn't hurt a "pop" song to have such a nice sound to use in a mix.



best regards,
mike 

Jeff,

 Sometimes you put your foot in mouth so badly... I'm left speechless.

 It must be a culture mismatch in how we communicate across such great distance... because I get the impression you are a lot nicer than you sometimes seem.

 all the best,
mike

Hi Jeff, 
 I think you make too many assumptions and you often seem to promote conventional ideas simply because they are the convention.

 I've worked with Mr. Marsallis on both Pop and Classical styles. I've used both an SM58 in the bell as well as U87 arrays at a distance.  What ever the gig inspires.

 I've worked with a lot of less well known horns and horn bands too... and it was primarily pop/soul/latin pop.

 The state I live in has about as many people in it, at any given time, as your entire country. Then we have New Orleans just down the highway in a whole 'nother state.


 Horns and wind are kinda a big deal down here in this area.


  Our little city has 4, yes 4 big bands based here that travel around and play hard and fast. We also have several RnB or Soul style horn bands. One of the soul bands has been schooling me for about 30 years now... and they still think of me as the kid or the new guy. :-)

 So what? Big deal.  

 I dislike it when you assume that people that don't brag about their experience have inconsequential opinions... but I know you mean well. :-)

 I've reciprocated by accepting you 110% as a peer and colleague for a long time now... it is just that sometimes we seem to communicate differently.

 I regard Daniel as a very experienced pro as well. 110%.

 I know that we can find common ground and still disagree about stuff. It's how we go about disagreeing that defines the nature of the relationship.

 It's the assumptions and wild conclusions that seem both unnecessary and well... not so nice.




 I think, and this is just my opinion, that when we speak of pop music that there really isn't any convention and that adhering to one because it happened to work out once or twice is too conventional.





Hi Davdud,
 I'd like to convey that I very much enjoy the work I hear you doing. When I saw your question I thought the appropriate answer was, and still is, 

"Any way you want to do it."

 That's why I have been reading the other folks answers rather than offering a "way". I recognize that your budget isn't matched to your skill or vision... but you will get there.

 I say that you can start with the gear you have and the room/environment circumstance you are working in and trust that your ears will guide you to where you want to get.



 all the best,
mike

 

http://royerlabs.com/malcolmmcnab.html

Here is another great little tidbit.  The ribbon mics were placed closer and above the trumpet in a more jazz context.  

A trumpet is directional to a point as it is cylindricaly bored, but 99% of the tone resonates from the body, the bell just projects the high distortion created from the air movement.  Other instrument like trombone, French horn and Tuba, are much more omnidirectional, and microphone placement becomes somewhat easier.

Placing the mic above the instrument allows just as much high frequency information to be captured, as the projected sound will follow the bell, but with much less distortion.

In the Allison Balsom video,  there were no microphones placed in front of the bell, only above and to the side.  And in that context the majority of the sound was being picked up by the main microphones of the orchestra, several feet away.  The spots only contribute maybe 30% of the overall pickup.   Obviously the 414 was not the main mic, it just provided a little added body resonance from that angle.  

I understand where you are coming from, and I'm an not saying this is the best method for all types of music, especially for edgy pop sounds, but it would be a mistake to dismiss the knowledge of engineers more experienced in areas of acoustic music recording when attempting to recording such instruments.  

And for the record, professionally trained classical musicians tend to be the best pop musicians as well, as long as they have a feel for it that is.  I have heard some pretty pathetic attempts at folk and popular music by lesser classical musicians who are just not able to listen to one another.  Some do get buried in their music without any thought to what is going on around them.  

Why do you want to record off axis necessarily. A lot of the sound happens on axis. But even so the off axis sound can be treated with EQ after. Nothing to stop you from boosting the highs a little if that is the sound you are after. 

The reason why condenser microphones are good is because they have the highs naturally and don't need boosting so much on or off axis.
Ribbon Mics will give a smoother probably more suitable classical sound but for a pop horn section condensers might still be better. If you are recording multiple horn players at once the room also becomes a factor and it should be a nice tight sounding room too. It all helps isolate the horns in a mix a little.

In my experiences classical musicians were not good pop horn section players at all. The best guys in that situation were the ones that were doing it more regularly. Especially phrasing the way pop horn sections phrase. The big band Jazz players are much better in this situation. They are used to it. Where the classical players came into their own was playing more orchestral for film score type material. They could read anything and play very accurately as an ensemble and also play difficult parts too. Two quite different uses of brass instruments. I love them both a lot.

One other thing...

Don't discount the idea that if you are recording in your bedroom or basement there will likely be a lot of low frequency resonance in the room... it can sound muddy and dull just because the room is full of to much bass.

The point being, try what seems like an aggressive low cut and listen to see if, as you sweep up the frequency range and cut more and more lows, that the trumpet seems brighter simply by removing the low end resonance of the room.

I point this out because you may find, without the low cut, that stuff actually sounds swamped with bass while you are interpreting it as not bright enough.





Some may explain that the easiest way to reduce the capture of unwanted low frequency room resonance is to use a very close mic position.

That is true, but as you move a cardioid mic towards the primary sound source you will boost bass response as proximity effect.


Either way you may have a whole bunch of low frequency energy that isn't helpful. 

So, consider a low cut and try it a little more aggressively than you might think is ok. Give it a try. See if it helps get you what you want to hear.



best regards,
mike


 

"Wynton Marsalis is an exception."


:-)


I think the thing that I find most exceptional about Mr. Marsalis is that he drags around, and invites in, as many players of his caliber as he can locate.


He's never been afraid to let other folks shine on his sessions, and so in my experience when I worked for him, there were always 15 - 30 killer players that would be gathered together pushing each other further.


The most remarkable thing about Mr. Marsalis is that he his more interested in seeing music and musicians infuse our world with goodness  than trying to appear exceptional.

He is part of a large community of exceptional musicians. 




all the best,
mike

Thanks Mike for reminding me of Marcus Roberts. I was racking my brain trying to remember his name. I was even researching it for a while but failed to find out who he was initially. I am sure Wynton has had a few piano players in his ensemble!

There was another thread on different drummers producing different sounds on the same drum kit. I was on the side of definitely yes depending on the dynamics involved etc. This was one of those examples. The drummer who was using my Sonor kit (just figured that out too it was Herlin Riley) produced a different sound to me as well and I never have forgotten that either.

That was one amazing Jazz ensemble. What I also was impressed by was before the start of each tune there was total silence and each band member knew exactly what the upcoming tempo was. There were no count-ins either. Wynton just held his trumpet up a little higher than normal and dropped the end of his bell down and that exact moment the ensemble was often instantly into the groove at the exact tempo.

Something many bands should learn the art of. Not making a single sound in between songs. Only create sound for the music being played. No count-ins either just really know the tempo and start in perfect time on some visual cue. We have to do this in the tribute show. Count-ins are sloppy and don't sound good. We rehearsed the Elvis part last week and it went well. Very slick. In two weeks we do the Cash stuff. After that the Orbison set. I am very fortunate. The musicians are of a very high calibre and can play so well.