Writing string parts question

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MelodicJimmy
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2013/06/13 00:00:38 (permalink)

Writing string parts question

I've just started working with a singer/ songwriter who's making his first album.  We decided that we wanted to have some strings on a couple of the songs.  So, the first thing I did.... I opened up Dimension Pro, fired up some of the orchestral sounds. 
 
"Batman Score" was one of the coolest orchestral sounds.... so, I recorded a track with that sound.... just playing PADS with the chord progression of the song.  Then, I began thinking...... first of all, I know that there are professional string arrangers that have been doing this for years.  I'm not one of these people. 
 
BUT.... instead of using one "orchestral sound," should I be breaking up my string part into multiple tracks and layering the string parts by INSTRUMENT?  For example, violins on one track, violas on another track, basses on another, cellos, maybe even clarinets, flutes on their own tracks.... etc. 
 
I'd like to have some counter melodies going on, too, so that's why I'm leaning toward going in this direction.  Any thoughts?

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    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re: Writing string parts question 2013/06/13 05:48:15 (permalink)
    Yep, separate tracks for the different instruments is definitely the way to go
    You will need to insert as many instances of Dimension Pro as you have instruments, and with 6Gb of RAM you should be good to insert a fair few before you run into system limitations.
    Keep an eye on your RAM usage - if it starts to creep up ominously, freeze anything you're happy with. Freeze the synth, not the track.

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    hellogoodbye
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    Re: Writing string parts question 2013/06/13 05:55:55 (permalink)
    Unless I need some sort of (almost hidden) 'stringpad' in the background of a song, I always create tracks for every instrument/section: not only so I can pan them as they should be panned but also so I can for instance let one section play crescendo while another may stay at the same volume or play decrescendo. In order to create convincing arrangements, you really need to do this. Sometimes you want a cello to play the melody and sometimes the violins, etc. etc. But even when I let all parts play at around the same volume (as in a string pad) I would create separate 'volume envelopes' (usually done with modulation when you use 'real' string libraries) for every part. It just sounds more real that way. Every section has and needs their own 'flow' and build up etc. 
     
    Since you talk about counter melodies, I would definitely go for separate tracks!

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    Guitarhacker
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    Re: Writing string parts question 2013/06/13 07:41:11 (permalink)
    depends on the need.  At times the pad is more than sufficient for the "strings",
     
    and if the song warrants it... something like a Celine Dion piano based song, yes, you would want to use multiple tracks and plenty of good samples when you want it to sound like there is a real string session back there.

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    Sidroe
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    Re: Writing string parts question 2013/06/13 09:33:55 (permalink)
    Hey, Jimmy,
         I agree with the other posts so far but there are some other orchestration techniques to take into account. Facing the orchestra, the 1st violins are panned to the right, little off center. 2nd Violins are farther to the right. Violas are are panned a little to the left off center. Cellos are farther left. Bass sections are sometimes behind the cellos and sometimes in the center.
         There is also the split table technique, usually for chord work. This means in order to play a chord, if you have two players at the same music stand, the music would have two notes on the manuscript. One violinist would play one note and the other player, well, you get the picture I'm sure. This is used in violins and violas mostly.
         Real string players can not play full chords. They have to break the chords into separate notes split between the section to get a pad-type chord.
    These two techniques can make for some realistic sounding orchestrations. If you use this and do the hard work now, you can just print out your section string parts for real players later.
         I would suggest visiting some websites about orchestrating. Garritan has a free tutorial taken from RIMSKY-KORSAKOV. They also have a great jazz tutorial class as well that is free of charge. Good luck my friend! 

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    konradh
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    Re: Writing string parts question 2013/06/13 10:25:23 (permalink)
    All advice above is good.  The first question is if you want realism or just a cool effect.  For realism, here are some basic thoughts:
     
    • Agree to put instruments on separate tracks.  You can Google to get an orchestra seating chart to see where instruments are placed in a traditional symphony, although sometimes in modern music, things are panned a litte more extremely and the basses are kept more central.
    • Phrasing is very important.  Try to sing along with a part and notice where you breathe.  It sounds weird when there are no breaks between phrases.  Depending on tempo, the break can be a quarter note or a 32nd, or something in between.
    • Keyboard players—and I am one—tend to bunch the notes up together like a piano chord.  String arrangers voice chords with more space.
    • Tried and true trick is to start with low strings, then move then higher as the song builds, and then add brass for drama.  Woodwinds are awesome for counter melodies and short solo lines.
     
    Of course, you can do things completely differently: these are just some basic thoughts.
     
    Good luck and let us hear what you come up with.

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    Sidroe
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    Re: Writing string parts question 2013/06/13 11:39:23 (permalink)
    Konrahd is the man! Open voicings or wider spaces between the intervals. We also overlooked that orchestral players get very bored very quickly just sawing away on one note for 8 measures. There is usually a lot of interaction between the different instruments for color. And there is most definitely a lot more moving around note-wise other than just padding away. There is always a little bit of counter melodies and little fill riffs going on. DON'T OVERPLAY! just add some character to the parts. Start with just using cellos for an opening or 1st verse. The next verse, add the violas, saving the full violins for the chorus. This layering can make for very intense dynamics. Start listening closely to movie soundtrack material and you will get a wealth of ideas using these techniques.

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    groovey1
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    Re: Writing string parts question 2013/06/13 13:49:01 (permalink)
    Bristol_Jonesey
    ... Freeze the synth, not the track.




    Not trying to derail this thread, but I'm wondering what you mean by this. I take you're saying don't use the "snowflake" button?

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    Guitarpima
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    Re: Writing string parts question 2013/06/13 16:25:48 (permalink)
    There is a site somewhere, I forget where but I saw them, that has midi effects, or a cal, that will separate the different parts for you. I want to say Keni, a member here, but I'm not sure. You have to buy them but it would make the separation of the different parts go much faster.
     
    Maybe someone here knows about them?

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    gswitz
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    Re: Writing string parts question 2013/06/13 16:36:50 (permalink)
    To freeze a synthesizer instead of the track, open the browser, click on the synthesizer tab and click the freeze button on the synthesizer itself.

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    wizard71
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    Re: Writing string parts question 2013/06/13 17:13:21 (permalink)
    Yep, separate track for each inst. try and make each part more interesting than just being part of a block chord.

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    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re: Writing string parts question 2013/06/14 05:00:45 (permalink)
    groovey1
    Bristol_Jonesey
    ... Freeze the synth, not the track.




    Not trying to derail this thread, but I'm wondering what you mean by this. I take you're saying don't use the "snowflake" button?


    Sorry, I thought I'd responded to this last night, but obviously the forum software is still playing up.
     
    What I'm saying is yes ,you DO use the snowflake icon, the one on the Midi track associated with the synth you want to freeze.
     
    Freezing a track is accomplished by right clicking in the track header and selecting Freeze.
     
    There are various options that can be set for either method - it's worth exploring these to get an idea of what the freeze functions are capable of

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    konradh
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    Re: Writing string parts question 2013/06/14 11:32:46 (permalink)
    If you freeze the synth, you have audio instead of a synth and lower CPU and memory use.  You can always unfreeze.  I find it imperative to freeze Hollywood Strings and often Vienna Dimension Strings to get decent performance.  (I usually have the Browser open and on the synth page.)
     
    If you freeze the track itself, you won't be able to change ProChannel, levels/fader, pan, effects, etc.  Probably good reasons to do that sometimes, but I never do that. 
     
     
    PS to Sidroe:  Thanks for the kind words, buddy.  The Mighty Konrad needs all the help he can get.

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    garrigus
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    Re: Writing string parts question 2013/06/14 11:56:00 (permalink)
    konradh
     and often Vienna Dimension Strings to get decent performance.

    Hey Konrad... how are you liking those Dimension Strings? I think they're excellent. Anxiously awaiting the release of the Cellos!
     
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    groovey1
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    Re: Writing string parts question 2013/06/14 12:04:53 (permalink)
    Thanks for the replies re: freezing, guys. I always use instrument tracks and use the freeze button to render to audio. I didn't appreciate the other variations of freeze that are possible ... I will check it out. It sounds like some of it is more relevant if you're using separate midi and synth tracks.
     
    Anyway, sorry for the side-track ... back to the topic of writing string parts!

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    konradh
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    Re: Writing string parts question 2013/06/14 13:25:31 (permalink)
    Scott, I love Dimension Strings.  They are more complex and detailed than the average person will need for a little sweetening, but if you want über-realistic orchestrations, they can't be beat.  I have used them on some pop and indie-folk stuff and they were great.
     
    A few points for those considering the purchase:
     
    1.  You really need to budget enough for the Vienna Instruments PRO player: the standard player can't take advantage of all the DS options.  PRO offers enough functions to make it a good purchase if you use any Vienna libraries.  I was annoyed at first because the sales people did not make this clear, but I am OK now and glad to have the PRO player.
    2.  You can either set the Pro Player to load all the articulations when you select a patch, or you can set it so you have can load only the articulations you think you need.  Loading all the DS articulations takes a long time on my machine, and mine is pretty powerful.  If you load all the articulations, you should have a good bit of RAM on board.
    3.  I try to keep the same articulations mapped to the same keyswitches in all my projects, even if it means having some empty cells; otherwise, I would go nuts trying to remember which keyswitch does what.
    4.  If you buy DS, load it up, and play a single note, your first reaction may be: "OK, that sounds good but not that different than my other string samples."  Don't freak out.  When you start using DS, taking advantage of all the articulations and options, and realize all the different possibilities of using anywhere from one to eight violins, you will be amazed at the realism.  You can go 60s "To Sir With Love," Moody Blues, disco strings, chamber music—whatever.
    5.  Although DS only has eight players, it can actually sound symphonic and is much richer than the chamber collection, especially with judicious use of the humanize feature of the Pro Player.  It also makes a good choice for 2nd violins along with your orchestral patch.  For string quartets, try two of the violins from DS along with the viola and cello from the solo string library (until DS releases the viola and cello collections!).
     
    Sorry for the long post, but this is a big purchase for most people and I want you to be informed.
     
    FYI, I have the old VSL Special Edition and Special Edition +, which means I have the whole orchestra with most articulations, sampled every other half step.  I also have the full Hollywood Strings library (I think the big one is called Diamond), and some good external synths.  Nothing is as real as DS, although, in fairness, Hollywood is a completely different sound.  I find Vienna more pristine than EastWest, which is neither good nor bad.

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    joden
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    Re: Writing string parts question 2013/06/14 14:34:14 (permalink)
    Sidroe
    Hey, Jimmy,
         I agree with the other posts so far but there are some other orchestration techniques to take into account. Facing the orchestra, the 1st violins are panned to the right, little off center. 2nd Violins are farther to the right. Violas are are panned a little to the left off center. Cellos are farther left. Bass sections are sometimes behind the cellos and sometimes in the center.
         



    Erm...isn't the other way round when facing the orchestra? The 1st violins are on the left of the conductor with the 2nds behind and a little further left? I assume you meant looking from the front and not the rear of the orchestra?
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    dmbaer
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    Sidroe
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    Re: Writing string parts question 2013/06/15 09:37:51 (permalink)
    Sorry, Joden, You are absolutely right. I think I may have gotten flustered by the forum giving me trouble with posting. I got in a hurry and..... OH,WELL! Thanks for the correction.

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    MelodicJimmy
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    Re: Writing string parts question 2013/06/15 13:35:33 (permalink)
    Wow!  Thank you for all the great replies!  I took all of your advice and created multiple tracks with Dimension Pro.  Just to keep things simple, I created parts for violin, viola, cello and bass.  I didn't really feel like there was a need for violin I and II.  The song is pretty basic:  verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-chorus   ....and the strings don't happen during the verses at all (only the choruses and bridge).
    I began with the bass playing the roots of the chords (there's an acoustic guitar playing arpeggios) on its own track, then wrote a cello part that's a third up from the bass notes (with some minor differences).  Next, now that I had the harmony of the chords filled in, I knew that I wanted the violins to have the "main" counter melody to the vocals, so I wrote a melodic line for the violins that stayed out of the way of the vocals, yet has enough melodic movement to be interesting on its own.  For the viola, I simply doubled the violin part for some added thickness/ warmness to the melodic line. 
     
    How's that for a start?  Any advice?  I'd like to reply to everyone individually, but I'd be here all night!  ALL of your replies were fantastic!

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    konradh
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    Re: Writing string parts question 2013/06/15 16:30:40 (permalink)
    MelodicJimmy, Sounds like you are doing well so congratulations.  I also sometimes find violins I and II plus violas, cellos, and basses to be more parts than I need unless I am trying to go real Mantovani—although there are many people who use all that plus divisi (splitting one of more of the groups into two sections).
     
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3k9mLg7ztN4
     
    In that link, the way the violin parts start in unison and then divide is classic Mantovani.  He was corny but good at what he did—and being too corny never held anyone back.
     

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