Thoughts about quality. Or: pearls before swine

I will be installing Sonar X2 Producer soon (hopefully...) and I am looking forward to using some of the new stuff it offers compared to Sonar 8.5 Producer. Apart from the changes in the interface etc. I am also interested in Pro Channel and things like the Console Emulator, which seem to sound good and better and awesome. However, the last days I've been thinking about this and I am beginning to wonder what's the use of it all... 
 
First: I read and hear a lot about 'subtle' effects. Like the Console emulator: it has a subtle effect. You almost have to A B it to notice it. I read about people spending ages on a mix to get all kinds of similar subtle effects and details exactly as they want to. I also read about for instance certain reverbs sounding better than others. But then I wonder: what happens to those subtle and better effects when things are being mastered...? Won't a lot of those subtle effects be removed/changed/altered completely, rendering all the work that has been put in it useless during the mastering process? Specially if you for instance throw the full suite of Ozone all over the mix...!? Aren't we wasting time with a lot of the (subtle) effects we like to use?
 
Second: and even when we do get everything precisely (and subtle) as we want to... who is going to notice it? I sometimes wonder why people spend thousands of dollars on equipment and/or a master engineer to get everything exactly right when in the end 99% of the listeners don't give a **** about it all and they only care about the song...! (I am presuming the songs are alright here... and the performance too. If the song or performer sucks, no amount of money and plugins will save it, obviously... which I could start another topic about because I also sometimes wonder why some people even make music, let alone spend money on doing so because they have no talent at all...!) I thought about this because a while ago I had a few people listen to an old recording of mine form the eighties, made with regular tape cassette recorders, sound on sound, obviously sounding like utter **** with lots of noise and no real mixing at all... but the listeners didn't care at all and thought the song was great and they liked it as it was...! Which made me wonder why the heck I spend days and nights on getting the mixed and masters right for an album I released a year ago...
 
Third: that album I made didn't sound as good (not even close) as any given commercial album did but the radiostation that played it didn't mind: they played it simply because they liked the songs! And just as any radio station they throw a bunch of effects on EVERY song they play anyway (totally changing the overall sound of the songs while doing so). And let's not forget about listeners who listen to music with crappy earphones on smartphones or stereosets that come with loudness on by default or which have all kinds of sound effects that change the feel of a song completely...
 
In short: isn't it all pearls before swine...?
 
Just curious what you all think about this. 

This is so completely obvious, but it will not keep me from loving my mixes to death.

In the end it's very much like with buying wines: We don't buy taste, we buy illusions, history, image..you name it. Most of us couldn't tell the proper wines from each other in a blind test, but when we see the label (and maybe hear the price), it's associated to something. If it tastes good in this particular occasion with this particular food, it's good.
 
If the song is good, most likely we forgive a lot concerning the technical level, and it sounds better than it is.
"It's supposed to sound like that!"
 
Mixing effects are used on track level. They can't (mostly) be removed in mastering, which is done to a ready stereo-mix.
 
Throwing in a mastering VST, like Ozone, in a mix, not to mention several of them, will most likely make mastering engineers work less rewarding and maybe compromise his task, unless used very carefully. You don't send the mastering engineer a "I tried to  pre-master-it-sort-of" -version, but a mix as decent as you can make, with good headroom etc.

In the end it's the sound that matters. How you get there is up to you.
 
For one, I believe that the cleaner, simpler, and less cluttered a mix is, the better it sounds and easier it is to manage.
 
IOW, Why try to fix a bad sound after the fact with all kinds of plugins? Just record it right the 1st time and it won't need a lot of fancy-dancy stuff covering it up. Works for me anyway.
 
.

AT
Finally, not even engineers say "that song rocks but the bass recording really sucks and keeps me from putting it on a playlist."

 
You don't go to the Songs Forum much, do you?

Bapu,  I should have said most non-anal engineers ;-)
 
Besides, nothing could ruin your bass playing ... could it?
 
@

Bit-once again you hit the nail on the head. Art is mainly appreciated by artist. We (the artists) don't do what we do for the masses we do it for ourselves. if we get approval, thats just a bonus. Music is a cheap commodity. Asked someone on the elevator or in grocery store how they like the song playing (the Bach concerto) and they'll respond...."it's OK"-but ask the artist and they gush over the details, the emotions, the life in it.
I wrestle over the snap of the snare, the definition in the acoustic guitar, the 2db cut in the vocal. I invite the friends (non-artist) in my perfectly tuned studio-seat them in the sweet spot between VERY expensive studio monitors-I'm behind them weeping because of the beauty in the mix and they say..."It's OK"....IF they buy the CD that took 18 months to write , record, master and manufacture-they (the masses) listen to it once -twice if the REALLY like it..
Go figure.....why do we do it? Artist create, we can't stop. I have to obsess over the tail on the reverb-And NO ONE will notice -except you Bitflipper

MakeShift
I am of the opinion that you should always try to do everything to the best of your ability, whether others notice or not. For one thing, your ability grows and gets better, the more you strive for.

+1

Actuaully I think this kind of reasoning is why toontrack's EZMIX was created. I can see where, even myself, get into a new song creation and then when it's half way done I start marching down the long road of mixing/and tweaking and then the tune never gets finished. I do have to admit that throwing a few exmix presets on the drums and vocals can make a tune sound way more polished than just leaving everything dry. It's a quick way to start evaluating a mix and it keeps me in the song writing zone.
You have to consider what is the final destination of the tune. Is it something that is going to be released to the public? Then mix and produce the crap out if it. If it's just a rough draft or something that you may be handing off as a demo to band members, then do a quick mix and call it a day.
 
Let the toontrack preset bashing begin!!!
 

bapu
I lurves EZMix (as well as EZKeys).
 
Since I'll never be a Danny Danzi I'm happy to use EZMix presets if they serve my purpose.
 
That's not to say I use them all the time. I gravitate to them when I'm struggling too long with conventional tools.
 

LOL and you should thank God for that brother because it's a blessing and a curse being me....and sometimes, the curse outweighs the blessing. Then again, the good side of it is....when you do this for a long time, the things you might think I pay close attention to are not so.
 
They just leap out at you when you know when and how to listen to something. I don't have to stay focused on things anymore. I can just about have a normal conversation with you and listen to a piece of music without losing details. I'll stop the playback if something stands out and tell you to hold that thought a minute to see for sure. LOL!
 
At the end of the day, details and doing all the things we do within a mix come natural over time like anything else in life that you may need a schedule for at first. Ever start a new job and use a check list? Ever use a check list or "order" so to speak for Sonar?
 
Stuff like that starts to burn into your head over time to where it becomes a part of who you are as a listener as well as an engineer and an artist.
 
As for little details....each good thing you add to a mix makes the percentage go up. For example, if you use a really junky mic pre and have old radio shack cables in your studio, new cables may make a 3% difference, the mic pre may make a 5% difference.
 
Add them up you made a near 10% difference for the better. Add in a new mic and you added another 3%. These things are sometimes subtle, other times obvious...and yet other times, obvious when grouped together.
 
The main thing to consider is whether or not the things you worry about detail wise, are done correctly. To assume that a mastering engineer would degrade your mix full of details would be incorrect IF the M.E. knew what he was doing.
 
I can tell you I've never mastered anything and degraded it. Ozone is a different story because in my opinion, though it is good for what I like to call "little m mastering" I also feel it skewers mixes to the point of degradation if you're not careful.
 
You should always pay attention to details and take pride in your work no matter how good or bad you are. Who cares what people think as well as what they decide to listen on. When I listen to stuff I've done for clients as well as my own stuff, I could care less how it sounds on earbuds really. I mix for how it sounds on speakers that are bigger than an inch. If someone feels inclined to not have a great listening experience due to the media they choose to listen on, that's fine and is really their loss in the long run.
 
Granted, I DO try and listen to my stuff on various sound sources but I'd never make a decision based on ear buds or a mono cell phone. When you start compensating for that, you're allowing the world to dictate your art as well as the moves you make. You can't control what the masses will listen on any more than you can stop them from turning up the bass eq on a perfectly mixed/mastered song because they want to hear that bass rattle their bile ducts. Do for you and allow the world to praise you if you're ever blessed enough to be in that situation.
 
-Danny