craigb
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For the guitar players and builders...
What's your opinion on THIS? Other than making your guitar neck look drunk that is!
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
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UbiquitousBubba
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Re: For the guitar players and builders...
2013/07/03 10:08:55
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That is pretty weird, Craigb. I can see some people having a hard time with this.
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trimph1
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Re: For the guitar players and builders...
2013/07/03 10:24:24
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Wha'd they do to the frets?
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Mesh
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Re: For the guitar players and builders...
2013/07/03 10:30:58
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I like the comment "it never goes out of tune". CH's very own pro-luthier (Spacey) should comment on this. :)
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craigb
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Re: For the guitar players and builders...
2013/07/03 10:35:03
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Mesh I like the comment "it never goes out of tune". CH's very own pro-luthier (Spacey) should comment on this. :)
That's if you include the Evertune system. In fact, it was watching the demo videos for that that I came across the True Temperment stuff. HERE'S/ that website. Also interesting, but no trem version until 2015 (it's best use IMO).
post edited by craigb - 2013/07/03 10:36:40
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
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spacey
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Re: For the guitar players and builders...
2013/07/03 10:46:52
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My thoughts? Well it's not new. I haven't played one. Does it solve tuning and playing issues that are results of players? I can't see how it would. Does it solve physical properties of the instrument that effect tuning? Maybe one but not all of them. In the videos I heard; " It just sounds like to me" and when he demonstrated the distorted chord in a high register it didn't sound to me like I would agree with him on everything....and does one think that all the players will agree that it is the solution or better? Can one tell by listening that a player is playing a true temperament neck?...I really doubt that. So...I wouldn't spend time learning how to build that neck and I wouldn't spend extra money for it. YMMV. I'm an opinionated butthead so I sure don't have reservations of commenting on this. I appreciate that one would think or refer to me as a luthier but I'm not. I'm a player that attempts building electric guitars.
post edited by spacey - 2013/07/03 10:49:16
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trimph1
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Re: For the guitar players and builders...
2013/07/03 10:52:25
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Yeah, but, your guitars look waaaaaayy better than that thing does!!!!!
The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate. Bushpianos
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spacey
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Re: For the guitar players and builders...
2013/07/03 10:55:18
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trimph1 Yeah, but, your guitars look waaaaaayy better than that thing does!!!!!
Now I'm all embarrassed, humbled and...appreciative of the very kind words.
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drewfx1
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Re: For the guitar players and builders...
2013/07/03 11:26:04
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I'm a firm believer that if you want an instrument to always be absolutely perfectly in tune in all ways at all times WTF are you doing with a guitar?
 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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craigb
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Re: For the guitar players and builders...
2013/07/03 12:21:24
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I like buttheaded opinions. I also don't think I could have a guitar neck that looks that ugly. (Maybe if I actually played the guitar more?)
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: For the guitar players and builders...
2013/07/03 12:31:00
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I like the idea that you might be able to buy a neck and bolt it on any old plank of wood. I wonder if they do compensated nuts? Do you get a special set up for YOUR favorite set of strings? I've always wanted to hear one of these "solutions". best regards, mike
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spacey
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Re: For the guitar players and builders...
2013/07/03 12:33:52
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craigb I like buttheaded opinions.  I also don't think I could have a guitar neck that looks that ugly. (Maybe if I actually played the guitar more?)
LOL....then I will ask another question, please... So...if that was just a fantastic idea that made all the difference in the world, worth every penny, the cats meow....what happens when you play music with another guitarist? Does he have to have one too? lol.
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drewfx1
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Re: For the guitar players and builders...
2013/07/03 12:39:46
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 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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craigb
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Re: For the guitar players and builders...
2013/07/03 12:41:48
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They say the differences can add musical 5pice and are not dissonant (except for the Meantone blues version which you can't play with others using equal temperment gear). Yeah, right. I'm guessing the bass player will still be a half beat behind the drummer.
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
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drewfx1
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Re: For the guitar players and builders...
2013/07/03 12:44:57
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It's not our fault if the drummer's always ahead of the beat.
 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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spacey
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Re: For the guitar players and builders...
2013/07/03 12:54:09
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Well if all it takes is a guitar that will tune itself the true temperament claim is out the window. Unless that thing can tune each note played faster than someone like John McLaughlin can play them...and I don't think so.
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slartabartfast
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Re: For the guitar players and builders...
2013/07/03 13:51:40
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Because the tone of the string is determined by the thickness and tension, and because the tension applied by bending the string to the fret varies from string to string, a simple division of the fret distances so that each string is fretted at the same length should produce some minor variation of the pitch achieved on heavier vs lighter strings. Some guitars take that into account by angling the bridge relative to the nut, but if the frets are all parallel to one another and not angled as well, there is still some error. The degree of fret variation in the picture looks too extreme to accomplish "perfection" which in any case would still be defeated if different gauge or composition strings were used. And of course unless the frets were constantly moving around as the strings stretch decreasing the unfretted tension, there is no way the guitar is never going out of tune. Loss of tune has nothing to do with fret location. Ever hear of a piano tuner?
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Zonno
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Re: For the guitar players and builders...
2013/07/03 14:55:32
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I was under the impression that temperament was different in every key. In the old days they used to have different "keyboards" for different temperaments And that is why they invented equal temperature. So with this guitar I need a different necks for Bb, Am, G, F, Em etc?????
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Beepster
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Re: For the guitar players and builders...
2013/07/03 15:22:50
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Might be cool for an acoustic, classical or hyper strict no bending jazz but it looks like it would be a bunghole to try and play blues or anything that has even a hint of string bending. Also after years of keeping fret fingering as tight against the fret as possible it would be an adjustment and probably lead to bad habits when you wanted to switch back to a a standard fretboard. And yeah... string gauge and other factors would likely seriously screw with it. I'll pass.
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Beepster
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Re: For the guitar players and builders...
2013/07/03 15:28:25
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Zonno I was under the impression that temperament was different in every key. In the old days they used to have different "keyboards" for different temperaments And that is why they invented equal temperature. So with this guitar I need a different necks for Bb, Am, G, F, Em etc?????
I'm assuming that is what this is attempting to correct.
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Desmo808
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Re: For the guitar players and builders...
2013/07/03 16:00:37
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Beepster Might be cool for an acoustic, classical or hyper strict no bending jazz but it looks like it would be a bunghole to try and play blues or anything that has even a hint of string bending.
That's what I was thinking. In the second video, the guy covered a Paul Gilbert song and did some bending. Now I don't know if it was just poor technique or the TT neck itself, but the bends were out of tune. He also limited himself to extremely shallow, manic mosquito vibrato. Again, I don't know if this was just his technique, or a deliberate attempt to avoid vibrato-ing over the varied fret spacing.
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Beepster
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Re: For the guitar players and builders...
2013/07/03 16:52:06
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Desmo808
Beepster Might be cool for an acoustic, classical or hyper strict no bending jazz but it looks like it would be a bunghole to try and play blues or anything that has even a hint of string bending.
That's what I was thinking. In the second video, the guy covered a Paul Gilbert song and did some bending. Now I don't know if it was just poor technique or the TT neck itself, but the bends were out of tune. He also limited himself to extremely shallow, manic mosquito vibrato. Again, I don't know if this was just his technique, or a deliberate attempt to avoid vibrato-ing over the varied fret spacing.
Some of the frets look like you'd drop almost a quarter tone if you went too far with your bend. To try to learn how to compensate you'd have to do it fret by fret and string by string. Too crazy. A floating bridge would make upward bends more feasible but that just ain't the same and would probably totally defeat the temperament anyway. Those necks with the quarter note frets strategically placed or the ones where the frets fan out would be far easier to play with. But as someone who likes to play crazy chords on an acoustic all over the neck I could see a use for it there. Otherwise... naw.
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SteveStrummerUK
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Re: For the guitar players and builders...
2013/07/03 17:05:41
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Fascinating stuff. My Kemper Profiling Amp uses its built-in pitch shifting software to accomplish something very similar. From the manual: Pure Tuning When you press "Pure Tuning", intervals produced by the Pitch Shifter will be slightly detuned from the standard tempered scale to create a so-called "natural" or "pure" tuning. This will avoid harmonic beating, especially when distorted afterwards. Background of Pure Tuning Instruments with frets or keys are tuned to "tempered" scale that has been used in western music for the last few centuries. The benefit of tempered tuning is that it allows you to play in any key you like; however, the result is a bit of a compromise, since intervals sound better when tuned according to the natural harmonic scale. Fretless instruments like violins - or even the human voice - can produce arbitrary pitches. Musicians with fretless instruments will instinctively tune their notes to fit better to the musical context. The Profilers Pitch Shifter has the same ability, since it has full control over the relative pitch it creates. Apart from octaves, every interval will be slightly detuned to fit the harmonics of the note you play; this will be the most perceivable on thirds and seventh, which are tuned down by several cents. To make Pure Tuning audible, try the following: - Choose your favourite distorted rig
- Turn down Gain to clean.- Select the Type "Chromatic Pitch" in one of the STOMP slots
- Turn Mix all the way to the left, and Voice Mix to the middle, so you hear both Pitch Shifter voices
- Choose +16 and +19 for Voice 1 and 2 Pitch to get the third and fifth above the octave
Sounds crazy, right? The was never a need for such thin sound. Now turn the Gain up for distortion. You will hear a deep growl, swinging around the original base note that you are playing on your instrument. Not too nice. Now press "Pure Tuning", and you will get a nice, steady fundamental note. Even chords might work. It still sounds like your guitar, but different. It doesn’t even sound like a pitch shifter anymore. You can get different colours by choosing different intervals for a solo sound, for example. Be sure to experiment with different interval settings! What has happened? You might be aware that the third and fifth above the octave are natural harmonics (overtones) to the note you play. They both blend with the fundamental frequency, especially when driven by a distortion. However, intervals tuned to a tempered scale do not reflect the overtones exactly, as they are slightly detuned to fit into the musical scales. This results in heavy beating when mixed in the distortion. "Pure Tuning" solves this issue immediately, allowing the pitch shifter to create sonic colours rather than additional voices.
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slartabartfast
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Re: For the guitar players and builders...
2013/07/03 17:11:03
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Zonno I was under the impression that temperament was different in every key. In the old days they used to have different "keyboards" for different temperaments And that is why they invented equal temperature. So with this guitar I need a different necks for Bb, Am, G, F, Em etc?????
Yes, when I first looked at the frets I was assuming the designer was trying to make a guitar with just intonation, which would seem to require a different guitar for each key. The fret variations look like they may be extreme enough to accomplish that. But the article seemed to indicate it was an attempt to produce a standard (equal temperament) scale accurately.
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Zonno
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Re: For the guitar players and builders...
2013/07/03 17:32:17
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slartabartfast
Zonno I was under the impression that temperament was different in every key. In the old days they used to have different "keyboards" for different temperaments And that is why they invented equal temperature. So with this guitar I need a different necks for Bb, Am, G, F, Em etc?????
Yes, when I first looked at the frets I was assuming the designer was trying to make a guitar with just intonation, which would seem to require a different guitar for each key. The fret variations look like they may be extreme enough to accomplish that. But the article seemed to indicate it was an attempt to produce a standard (equal temperament) scale accurately.
So since equal temperature is a compromise that enables you to play in all keys, their guitar is a compromise. Just as my normal guitar (of which they say it is not exactly equal temperature) is a different compromise. But my normal guitar may be a better compromise for some of the keys. (That explains the preferance of some forum members for certain keys (such as Am))
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jbow
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Re: For the guitar players and builders...
2013/07/03 18:36:53
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Someone should put those fretwires on this neck.
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