robbyk
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Mixing Singer / Keyboard
I currently have a client who is now doing some cover songs which will solely be her voice and piano. She is studying voice and the recordings have aided her in improving her vocal style and abilities. She is a young woman (18+) and is recording songs from Beyoncé, etc. I am comfortable mixing her voice but I have never mixed a voice / piano song. A lot of my work is guitar and voice and I often have the guitarist double his guitar which I then pan out slightly left and right with sends for reverb panned out slightly farther and keep the vocals dead center. But how about piano? I listened to Tony Bennett and he had the piano slightly left and his vocals slightly right like a stage setting and, of course, it was perfect. But would this work for a modern Beyoncé song? Any suggestions? Piano left (e.g. 5-10L), vocals right (e.g. 5-10R) with reverb panned lightly out a bit farther? Secondly, but hopefully not detracting from the above, would the new Overloud Vintage Keyboard Effects be a good investment for a project like this? I have EZ Keys (Grand and Upright) and, of course, Tru Pianos Amber. I am using a Roland A-500S midi keyboard controller. Thanks much!
"I'm just workin' on a good life, the way it is." Best, Robby K PC Specs: Dell XPS Tower, Intel Core i5 7400 CPU 3 GHz @, 8 GB RAMHardware: Focusrite Scarlett 2i4, Line 6 TonePort UX1, ART Tube MP, JBL LSR2325P 5" Bi-Amped MonitorsSoftware: Windows 10 Home, Sonar 8.5.3 Producer, Sonar Producer X1, Sonar Producer X2 expanded, Sonar Producer X3, Ableton Live 8.3.4, Ozone, Alloy, Toontrack, Podfarm, IK Multimedia, Garritan, Melodyne, Antares, Bias, Rob Papen, OhmForce, Don't Crack... Music Studio
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LpMike75
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Re: Mixing Singer / Keyboard
2013/07/07 01:37:14
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Hey Robby - I've never recorded live piano either, but one of the techniques I read which sounded neat was: stereo mic the piano and pan it that way in the mix, then throw your lead vocals up the middle. On a related note, I was listening to "Someone Like You", (Adele) while driving to work. I thought to myself that the piano sounded pretty mono and plain. Maybe it was my car stereo....
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Mixing Singer / Keyboard
2013/07/07 08:19:48
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"I listened to Tony Bennett and he had the piano slightly left and his vocals slightly right like a stage setting" That can reinforce the idea that Mr. Bennet is usually accompanied by an accompanist. For a singer songwriter mono can be very effective and intimate sounding. It's all a matter of taste; making this decision can be easy or very complicated, and in the end it is just a choice. best regards, mike
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Guitarhacker
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Re: Mixing Singer / Keyboard
2013/07/07 08:26:33
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I would certainly try the slight panning of the 2 parts. However, a well played and well sung part will make your job the easiest in the world. On the other hand, poor performances, or performances that are not in the groove with each other will make it an impossible task. Assuming the piano player and singer know what they're doing..... experiment with a slight panning and use EQ and reverb to taste......and your job should be easy. I would keep them both close to the center. A good singer will fit her part into what the piano player is doing to interpret the song, and a good piano player will not overplay and fill spaces that should be filled by the singer. THAT.... is the real secret to a piano/guitar, vocal tune.... if there is a secret. It's more in the players than in the mix.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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robbyk
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Re: Mixing Singer / Keyboard
2013/07/07 12:32:43
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Thanks all for the comments, I've already recorded the keys in mono so I am limited to that for this session of, hopefully, many to come. I have been recording her for a time now and it is a distinct joy to work with extreme and committed talent at any age. As I mentioned this is just one of many steps she is taking to study her voice and find ways to improve; she and I and her Mom (a Worship Leader at my former church) spend hours going over her comps, editing and pre and final mixes to help her discover her voicings and strengths and limitations and that has also allowed me to improve my craft, especially EQ and compression. Once I finish editing her piano parts, we will begin recording vocals so I am excited to see how this will turn out; I am somewhat fraught however as I am used to creating wide mixes and this mono / mono seems like a short spread...but we will see...it is fun working on something entirely new :)
"I'm just workin' on a good life, the way it is." Best, Robby K PC Specs: Dell XPS Tower, Intel Core i5 7400 CPU 3 GHz @, 8 GB RAMHardware: Focusrite Scarlett 2i4, Line 6 TonePort UX1, ART Tube MP, JBL LSR2325P 5" Bi-Amped MonitorsSoftware: Windows 10 Home, Sonar 8.5.3 Producer, Sonar Producer X1, Sonar Producer X2 expanded, Sonar Producer X3, Ableton Live 8.3.4, Ozone, Alloy, Toontrack, Podfarm, IK Multimedia, Garritan, Melodyne, Antares, Bias, Rob Papen, OhmForce, Don't Crack... Music Studio
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robbyk
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Re: Mixing Singer / Keyboard
2013/07/07 16:49:34
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Actually, I found a piano / voice cover of the song we are working on: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MnptKXTYi8 The piano is a little wider than vocals (not sure if it is stereo), both up the center...I guess that is a good guide.
"I'm just workin' on a good life, the way it is." Best, Robby K PC Specs: Dell XPS Tower, Intel Core i5 7400 CPU 3 GHz @, 8 GB RAMHardware: Focusrite Scarlett 2i4, Line 6 TonePort UX1, ART Tube MP, JBL LSR2325P 5" Bi-Amped MonitorsSoftware: Windows 10 Home, Sonar 8.5.3 Producer, Sonar Producer X1, Sonar Producer X2 expanded, Sonar Producer X3, Ableton Live 8.3.4, Ozone, Alloy, Toontrack, Podfarm, IK Multimedia, Garritan, Melodyne, Antares, Bias, Rob Papen, OhmForce, Don't Crack... Music Studio
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The Band19
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Re: Mixing Singer / Keyboard
2013/07/07 19:57:20
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☄ Helpfulby robbyk 2013/07/07 21:52:04
I would spread the piano and bring her down the pipe, and make some room for her w/EQ/MB Compression.
Sittin downtown in a railway station one toke over the line.
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robbyk
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Re: Mixing Singer / Keyboard
2013/07/07 21:56:56
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The Band19 I would spread the piano and bring her down the pipe, and make some room for her w/EQ/MB Compression.
Yup, my sentiments precisely after some hand's on; in fact I was working on the piano this afternoon...6/4 time...that's also a new one for me:) Thanks!
"I'm just workin' on a good life, the way it is." Best, Robby K PC Specs: Dell XPS Tower, Intel Core i5 7400 CPU 3 GHz @, 8 GB RAMHardware: Focusrite Scarlett 2i4, Line 6 TonePort UX1, ART Tube MP, JBL LSR2325P 5" Bi-Amped MonitorsSoftware: Windows 10 Home, Sonar 8.5.3 Producer, Sonar Producer X1, Sonar Producer X2 expanded, Sonar Producer X3, Ableton Live 8.3.4, Ozone, Alloy, Toontrack, Podfarm, IK Multimedia, Garritan, Melodyne, Antares, Bias, Rob Papen, OhmForce, Don't Crack... Music Studio
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Jeff Evans
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Re: Mixing Singer / Keyboard
2013/07/07 21:59:16
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☄ Helpfulby robbyk 2013/07/08 12:05:54
When you are recording any keyboard instrument you should do it in stereo. I don't know why people record keyboard instruments in mono. If there two outputs use them! Reason. Most keyboards provide stereo imaging including acoustic piano which is often spread (subtly) across the stereo width. My new Kurzweil has sampled the piano sounds in stereo ie two mics! Why would you loose that? That is what happens when you just use a mono or single output. That alone would have solved your problem But it is also not that hard either. Pan the voice centre and give it a nice subtle stereo reverb that will help to spread the vocal sound slightly. Piano can be just centre as well. The fact there are only two things present make it much easier to mix. A bigger issue is the balance between the voice and the piano. You may even want to automate the piano levels up slightly if the vocals pause for any length of time. But not in between every word though or sentence just if there are any instrumental piano bits. It will sound silly if the piano stays down at backing level in these sections.
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2013/07/07 22:05:03
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robbyk
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Re: Mixing Singer / Keyboard
2013/07/08 12:09:50
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Thanks Jeff for the further info, both points are new to me. We are tracking further keys this week so I have that to go on. I began mixing out the piano yesterday from my initial tracking session and I had not thought about the automation on the piano riffs, that is perfect for this song and I'm excited to bring up the tracks again this afternoon! Thanks again!
"I'm just workin' on a good life, the way it is." Best, Robby K PC Specs: Dell XPS Tower, Intel Core i5 7400 CPU 3 GHz @, 8 GB RAMHardware: Focusrite Scarlett 2i4, Line 6 TonePort UX1, ART Tube MP, JBL LSR2325P 5" Bi-Amped MonitorsSoftware: Windows 10 Home, Sonar 8.5.3 Producer, Sonar Producer X1, Sonar Producer X2 expanded, Sonar Producer X3, Ableton Live 8.3.4, Ozone, Alloy, Toontrack, Podfarm, IK Multimedia, Garritan, Melodyne, Antares, Bias, Rob Papen, OhmForce, Don't Crack... Music Studio
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The Band19
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Re: Mixing Singer / Keyboard
2013/07/09 01:36:10
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There are a few more I'm going back to remix to get a better sound based on what's been learned. Another trick is to load an MP3 of a song with keys/vocals, and use that as a reference. Listen to it (the one you like) then solo your keys, A/B and stare and compare, then mute your keys, and solo your vox A/B, stare and compare, and tweak. I'm going to be doing some of this with my older tunes later this Summer (God willing.)
Sittin downtown in a railway station one toke over the line.
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Jay Tee 4303
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Re: Mixing Singer / Keyboard
2013/07/25 10:58:08
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Piano chording or arps or both? Spatial domain pretty well discussed here, cept depth of field...maybe a little verb on the keys to slide them back away from the front edge of the stage? Frequency domain...you might could triple track (clone twice) the keys, EQ the three for a nice blend, lows, mids and highs, but pick the center band cutoffs so it directly competes with the voice, then work dynamics or automate levels so it subtly slides behind her vocals and then back out front during her rests. The listener's ear will try to compensate for the missing mids, and you don't want a whole lot of focus on a meandering hole in the middle of the piano, so you might play around with precise timing, and points of emphasis in the vocals. When she hits one hard, it will come in over the top of the full spectrum piano anyway, and if she then backs off on the second or third note in that line, you could pull the meat out of the keys then, once she's in the middle of the uncompleted thought and already has the listeners attention. You might even get a bit...evil...with it.... Let the piano ring out while she's building toward a peak, make them lean forward some, work to get her nuances, and once you have them reaching for her, pull back a little harder on the piano, use the extra room to bring her even further forward and smack 'em right in the chops with the peak of her vocal. If there's one word in there she really hammers, you can even pull back on her verb till the very end of the articulation, (and EQ as well) ,dry the middle of that word up completely, then sweep the verb back in on vocal just in time to leave a tail so it doesn't sound like she blipped into another room. You know how certain upper mids can harsh your ears, right? Its a Darwin thing, so you can hear the toddler crying from underneath the overturned bookcase over the bassist and drummer finding the groove. You can blip in just a bit of that too, without the fatigue of a longer listening interval if the mood and arrangement will allow it. Gotta stay with the feel of the song, yada yada, just some things you might try and see if they get you home.
post edited by Jay Tee 4303 - 2013/07/25 11:09:45
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robbyk
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Re: Mixing Singer / Keyboard
2013/07/25 13:37:05
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jay tee 4303 Thanks for the additional, in-depth comments, much appreciated! On this project (Casualty Of Love done ballad style), I ended up with the Tony Bennett approach after trying a number of styles, i.e. I panned the piano slightly left and with reverb as you suggest, slightly back and out of focus. I also took the suggestions above and used automation to bring the piano out during the interludes. I made a number of mixes (and I listened to countless renditions on YouTube) but came back to this as my preference over and over, by far. Incidentally, the young singer travelled to St. Louis this past weekend and auditioned for The Voice with this same song but her mother tells me her nerves caused her to freeze up and she did not advance to L.A.. though she was asked to come back next year. But that is a whole 'nother issue to work on :) Thanks again, some fine tips there to consider on her next project!
"I'm just workin' on a good life, the way it is." Best, Robby K PC Specs: Dell XPS Tower, Intel Core i5 7400 CPU 3 GHz @, 8 GB RAMHardware: Focusrite Scarlett 2i4, Line 6 TonePort UX1, ART Tube MP, JBL LSR2325P 5" Bi-Amped MonitorsSoftware: Windows 10 Home, Sonar 8.5.3 Producer, Sonar Producer X1, Sonar Producer X2 expanded, Sonar Producer X3, Ableton Live 8.3.4, Ozone, Alloy, Toontrack, Podfarm, IK Multimedia, Garritan, Melodyne, Antares, Bias, Rob Papen, OhmForce, Don't Crack... Music Studio
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Jay Tee 4303
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Re: Mixing Singer / Keyboard
2013/07/26 10:23:25
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If you are liking the same mix day after day, you probably have it right! Sounds like she's too young to run her thru the club circuit...but that would probably get her confidence up and disappear any nerve issues. What's to fear from polite judges in a contest when you are used to dodging beer bottles and stray rounds?
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