Helpful ReplyX2 processes mono track as stereo with active Waves plugins in fx bin

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Guitarmech111
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2013/08/06 16:32:15 (permalink)

X2 processes mono track as stereo with active Waves plugins in fx bin

I am really NOT liking SONAR X2 right now.
 
I have a mono bass track recorded. I added the Bass Rider into the FX bin. SONAR changes the pan and puts a stereo effect on the track with the signal panned. When I turn off the plugin, the signal goes back to mono processing.
 
This also happens with the API-550 mono plug too. This is a one drawn wave track, not dual as you would find in a stereo track in case you were thinking of making sure it was mono. 
 
Thoughts?

Peace,
Conley Shepherd
Joyful Noise Productions
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Guitarmech111
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Re: X2 processes mono track as stereo with active Waves plugins in fx bin 2013/08/07 11:31:17 (permalink)
With additional research, I have found that there is still an interleave option to designate mono or stereo. I do not use the track inspector, but the interleave is in there and in the console view. I missed that. UE on that issue with another X* learning curve.
 
Here is an enhancement request I would like to see - put the interleave button BACK in the TRACK VIEW. I use the track view primarily and do not often use the track inspector.

Peace,
Conley Shepherd
Joyful Noise Productions
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John
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Re: X2 processes mono track as stereo with active Waves plugins in fx bin 2013/08/07 13:06:15 (permalink)
Track View and the Track Inspector are not mutually exclusive. Further the Track Inspector is customizable. 

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John
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Guitarmech111
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Re: X2 processes mono track as stereo with active Waves plugins in fx bin 2013/08/07 13:21:14 (permalink)
yeah, found that out. :) thx John.

Peace,
Conley Shepherd
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brconflict
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Re: X2 processes mono track as stereo with active Waves plugins in fx bin 2013/08/07 14:56:12 (permalink)
Also, for convenience, the plug-ins you have from Waves should be already labeled "Mono" or "Stereo" (or "Mono/Stereo"), and make sure your track is set to Mono or stereo to match, obviously. I make this mistake often, but it's quickly obvious what is wrong.

Brian
 
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Guitarmech111
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Re: X2 processes mono track as stereo with active Waves plugins in fx bin 2013/08/07 23:18:21 (permalink)
Thx Brian, I do use the mono plugs for the mono tracks. I just thought that since this was a mono clip that SONAR would detect that and make the audio track a mono track. I don't think that would be so hard. If I onlly choose one input for the track, that is NOT stereo, SONAR should change the interleave to mono. I am not able to think of a reason why this is not done.
 
Anyone think why this would not be a good rational?

Peace,
Conley Shepherd
Joyful Noise Productions
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bitflipper
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Re: X2 processes mono track as stereo with active Waves plugins in fx bin 2013/08/07 23:58:28 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby robert_e_bone 2013/08/08 07:40:00
Any track can arbitrarily switch between mono and stereo regardless of the specified interleave. In fact, a single track can switch from one to the other multiple times as it navigates through the fx chain.
 
SONAR is just adapting to each plugin's requirements, some of which can only handle mono in and mono out, while others can only do stereo ins and outs. Some are hardwired to output stereo regardless of the input. 
 
So yes, SONAR does see your mono track and starts out with a mono interleave. But depending on what you put into the fx bin SONAR might have to treat it as a stereo track, and you won't even know it unless it happens to be the last plugin in the bin. (And of course all tracks ultimately become stereo when fed to a stereo bus.)
 
Waves plugins normally avoid the issue by supplying separate mono and stereo versions of each. FabFilter does that, too. But not so many others. Maybe it's not the Waves plugin that's at fault, but perhaps something else that follows? 


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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Re: X2 processes mono track as stereo with active Waves plugins in fx bin 2013/08/08 07:40:23 (permalink)
Great info, Bitflipper.
 
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Guitarmech111
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Re: X2 processes mono track as stereo with active Waves plugins in fx bin 2013/08/08 09:15:05 (permalink)
bitflipper
Any track can arbitrarily switch between mono and stereo regardless of the specified interleave. In fact, a single track can switch from one to the other multiple times as it navigates through the fx chain.
 
SONAR is just adapting to each plugin's requirements, some of which can only handle mono in and mono out, while others can only do stereo ins and outs. Some are hardwired to output stereo regardless of the input. 
 
So yes, SONAR does see your mono track and starts out with a mono interleave. But depending on what you put into the fx bin SONAR might have to treat it as a stereo track, and you won't even know it unless it happens to be the last plugin in the bin. (And of course all tracks ultimately become stereo when fed to a stereo bus.)
 
Waves plugins normally avoid the issue by supplying separate mono and stereo versions of each. FabFilter does that, too. But not so many others. Maybe it's not the Waves plugin that's at fault, but perhaps something else that follows? 


Been through all that. I specifically use the Bass Rider MONO only in that fx bin. I also have the plugin properties to perform in mono mode.

SONAR did not detect the plugin and wave status to process this as a mono file. The onine help even states this:
When using a mono VST plug-in on a stereo track (interleave set to Stereo), the left and right channels will be out of sync. The left channel is processed by the mono effect, and delay compensation is applied, while the right channel is not processed and does not have delay compensation applied. The signal will look something like this:

Left channel: Wet signal (delayed)


Right channel: Dry signal (no delay)

A mono VST plug-in will work correctly if Enable Mono Processing is checked in the VST Plug-in Properties dialog box and the track interleave is set to mono.
 
This simply does not work as it would be best for a workflow. The above statement says SONAR is not intelligent enopugh to determine the track status.  I am going to call TS and get some clarification and submit a request for enhancement.

Peace,
Conley Shepherd
Joyful Noise Productions
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bitflipper
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Re: X2 processes mono track as stereo with active Waves plugins in fx bin 2013/08/08 10:27:08 (permalink)
Guitarmech111
Here is an enhancement request I would like to see - put the interleave button BACK in the TRACK VIEW. 



Amen to that! And the polarity button, too. This is one of the reasons I'm still using 8.5. I'm hoping X3 will have a fully-customizable track header similar to the toolbar customization feature, so you can show/hide whatever you like.
 
After re-reading your OP, it does seem that the fault lies within the Bass Rider plugin. I'd follow up with Waves as well as asking CW if they have any ideas. What you should do is create a demonstration project with just one track containing a short clip, plus the plugin and nothing else, open a support ticket and send them that project. They'll be able to tell you exactly what's going on.
 
Take a look at the plugin's entry in the registry (Software\Cakewalk Music Software\SONAR Producer\Cakewalk VST\Inventory). The relevant keys are forceMono, forceStereo, numInputs and numOutputs. These settings are based on information the plugin reports about itself when you do a scan; Plugin Manager can only trust that the plugin is returning accurate information.
 
I don't have Bass Rider, but I have other Waves mono-only plugins. They all have these settings:
forceMono = 1
forceStereo = 0
numInputs = 1
numOutputs = 1
Check and see what these values are for Bass Rider.


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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Guitarmech111
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Re: X2 processes mono track as stereo with active Waves plugins in fx bin 2013/08/08 14:47:23 (permalink)
I did go to waves and the problem is in SONAR. I confirmed SONAR was the issue when setting the track to a mono interleave, I did not get the issues with a mono plug working in stereo and out of sync.

SONAR needs to be a little smarter IMO...
 
IF I have a mono clip AND mono plugin, you would think SONAR would process the track as a mono track, but it doesn't. I even had a mono input assigned to the track for recording. (enhancement to the bakers) SONAR SHOULD HAVE FIGURED THAT I WANTED A MONO TRACK...

Peace,
Conley Shepherd
Joyful Noise Productions
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bitflipper
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Re: X2 processes mono track as stereo with active Waves plugins in fx bin 2013/08/08 18:01:34 (permalink)
This is intriguing. Mono clip, mono interleave, but processed as stereo. How did you discover that it was stereo? Did you freeze or bounce it and see a stereo waveform?


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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Guitarmech111
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Re: X2 processes mono track as stereo with active Waves plugins in fx bin 2013/08/08 18:39:24 (permalink)
No, the track was default as stereo interleave in the template I originally used for the project. I set the track to record a mono track as input. The take was recorded and drawn as a mono file, not a one sided stereo wave. This led me to believe that I was working with a mono file, not a one sided stereo file. The pan was centered all this time. Playback even played it back in the center too. I inserted a mono plugin specifically created and used for mono tracks by Waves - the MONO version of the plug.
 
Bottom line is that changing the interleave to mono got me out of the issue, but SONAR confused the issue with the way the track is laid out.
 
I presumed it was a mono track since there was a mono wave form drawn. NOT a one sided stereo wave form. If the track was a stereo interleave, I would expect that the one sided wave file would have been recorded instead of a mono single wave.
 
I see this as a fix - SONAR can either draw a one sided wave form, or change the interleave to mono when it records a mono track, or at least query the user if they want to keep the recording as a one sided wave or change the track to mono. No real biggie, this is just part of a lot of things I have been running into these last couple days with some older projects. I think that X2 has some issues with older files...
 
I hope that makes things clearer, it was a error with the way the project was laid out, but it was disguised as to what was really wrong.

Peace,
Conley Shepherd
Joyful Noise Productions
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Mistergreen
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Re: X2 processes mono track as stereo with active Waves plugins in fx bin 2013/08/13 16:24:20 (permalink)
Guitarmech111
I am really NOT liking SONAR X2 right now.
 
I have a mono bass track recorded. I added the Bass Rider into the FX bin. SONAR changes the pan and puts a stereo effect on the track with the signal panned. When I turn off the plugin, the signal goes back to mono processing.
 
This also happens with the API-550 mono plug too. This is a one drawn wave track, not dual as you would find in a stereo track in case you were thinking of making sure it was mono. 
 
Thoughts?




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John
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Re: X2 processes mono track as stereo with active Waves plugins in fx bin 2013/08/13 16:49:28 (permalink)
" @Bit
Amen to that! And the polarity button, too. This is one of the reasons I'm still using 8.5. I'm hoping X3 will have a fully-customizable track header similar to the toolbar customization feature, so you can show/hide whatever you like."
 
The track header is customizable in X2. Just not in the same way.
http://i421.photobucket.c..._zpse32bcdac.png 

Best
John
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Guitarmech111
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Re: X2 processes mono track as stereo with active Waves plugins in fx bin 2013/10/07 13:26:07 (permalink)
John
" @Bit
Amen to that! And the polarity button, too. This is one of the reasons I'm still using 8.5. I'm hoping X3 will have a fully-customizable track header similar to the toolbar customization feature, so you can show/hide whatever you like."
 
The track header is customizable in X2. Just not in the same way.
http://i421.photobucket.c..._zpse32bcdac.png 


John, what is your finding on your last post here?

Peace,
Conley Shepherd
Joyful Noise Productions
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Guitarmech111
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Re: X2 processes mono track as stereo with active Waves plugins in fx bin 2013/11/06 11:28:50 (permalink)
I am happy to report that X3 is acting the way I want it to in this regard of mono vs. stereo based on the track input. This has made me more happy about X3. :)
 
If you choose a mono input for a track, the track interleave is auto set as mono. Same for stereo, where the interleave is set to stereo.
 
Nice... :)

Peace,
Conley Shepherd
Joyful Noise Productions
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