gswitz
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can you fix a clip on the input into the master bus with the bus gain?
I often watch the master bus with no FX on the bus (pro channel off) to ensure that my input levels to the bus don't clip before I switch the bus PC on and make tweaks. Maybe tho... while working on the master FX I realize I need a little more vocal... I touch up the vocal bypass the master bus FX and notice that I'm clipping on the input to the master bus. Ways to fix... 1. Route master bus to another bus... route the vocal directly to master2. Import PC into Master2 and turn off PC in Master. Turn down master a touch so I don't clip enabling me to adjust the vocal separately from the rest of the mix. 2. Turn down the gain on the input to the master bus (I can't hear degradation but...) 3. Adjust the output level of all the tracks feeding the master bus to try to prevent the clip (notching). Really, I want to know how much I can trust that gain nob on the bus. If I duck it a little, does that avoid the clipping if the clipping only occurs due to the summing of the tracks? Obviously if you clip the output of the track, you get the clip indicator on the track itself and that can't be fixed with the bus gain.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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John
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Re: can you fix a clip on the input into the master bus with the bus gain?
August 27, 13 11:47 PM
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☼ Best Answerby gswitz September 03, 13 7:01 PM
Though I frown on using the input gain to fix this sort of thing it will do the job without issues. The way I prefer is to lower all the other tracks. I have a CS so that is very easy to do for me.
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Seth [DAWGURU]
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Re: can you fix a clip on the input into the master bus with the bus gain?
August 28, 13 0:21 PM
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☄ Helpfulby gswitz August 28, 13 9:17 PM
While working in the pre-mix and mixing stage its best to adjust gain staging so that the master bus hits no higher than -6 to -12db, IMHO. That will not only prevent the prevent the project from clipping but also leave you plenty of headroom for pre-mastering and mastering. SP
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gswitz
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Re: can you fix a clip on the input into the master bus with the bus gain?
August 28, 13 7:05 AM
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Seth, theoretically, you could master to 0 allowing the red lines in the wave form preview guide you for peaks so you could use volume automation for some leveling. then if you want to make room for mastering you could just lower the gain on the master input. I think this is exactly what I'm asking, and John says it works fine, but he isn't so sure about it. John, this morning I can't think of what a CS might be. Console? I can lower all the gains on the tracks too just by changing the routing as I describe in step 1 or by selecting all nodes for volume automation on all tracks and pulling them down. but this is a gross change and tricky to fine tune. I'd rather go with the routing change described in step 1 for dialing this in.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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Grem
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Re: can you fix a clip on the input into the master bus with the bus gain?
August 28, 13 8:32 AM
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CS = Cal Script. It's a scripting language that's been in CW ever since I can remember. If you know how to use it, it's a fantastic tool to do things like what John does. He runs this script and it lowers the volumes on all his trks by a preset amount. Am I correct John?
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Thatsastrat
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Re: can you fix a clip on the input into the master bus with the bus gain?
August 28, 13 8:45 AM
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Or it could be a Control Surface, which John also has.
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Thatsastrat
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Re: can you fix a clip on the input into the master bus with the bus gain?
August 28, 13 8:47 AM
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Double Post
post edited by Thatsastrat - August 28, 13 9:28 AM
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Grem
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Re: can you fix a clip on the input into the master bus with the bus gain?
August 28, 13 9:01 AM
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Thatsastrat Or it could be a Control Surface, which John also has.
And this allows lowering the volume on "all" tracks? That would be sweet! Wonder if I can get my VS100 to do that? : )
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Thatsastrat
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Re: can you fix a clip on the input into the master bus with the bus gain?
August 28, 13 9:35 AM
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Grem
Thatsastrat Or it could be a Control Surface, which John also has.
And this allows lowering the volume on "all" tracks? That would be sweet! Wonder if I can get my VS100 to do that? : )
Grem, Why not do a quick group of all your tracks ,then pull down the audio by one or two db, or what ever you need, and use the mouse, control surface, what ever, and still maintain the balance of the mix, but lowering the whole thing to stop clipping and gain the headroom. (edit for spelling)
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John
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Re: can you fix a clip on the input into the master bus with the bus gain?
August 28, 13 9:43 AM
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Yep its a control Surface. Also Seth is right. Thats why I prefer lowering faders. Its unintuitive but it is the best way to begin a mix. Lower all faders and bring up the one you want to be louder or leave it be. The point is that in a multi mix each track adds volume. That cumulative loudness needs to be compensated for. Turning the gain down will work but it is not a good way to mix. Think about it as gain staging. If you need to use the gain control in the input something is wrong.
post edited by John - August 28, 13 9:56 AM
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Razorwit
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Re: can you fix a clip on the input into the master bus with the bus gain?
August 28, 13 9:50 AM
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☄ Helpfulby gswitz August 28, 13 9:17 PM
Hi gswitz, Yep, you can trust the gain knob. In fact, from a purely technical point of view, you can clip the crap out of any number of tracks and busses and as long as you're not getting overs on your master out it will be fine. You can try this by putting a multi-out drum synth in a project, directing all of the outputs to a drum bus and then the drum bus to your master out. Now turn up the outputs on all the tracks and the drum bus until you're constantly clipping but also drop the fader on your master out until it isn't clipping. It sounds fine (I've just tried this again to make sure). That said, there are a whole bunch of reasons to not clip tracks and busses. For example, just becuase Sonar's mix architecture allows internal clipping doesn't mean that fx will allow it without sounding horrible, and heaven knows that any external hardware won't like it much. Also with 24 bit drivers there just isn't any reason to mix hot. So, certainly the gain knob in the master will work fine, but as others have said you probably should just turn down the tracks feeding the master. I do that by using the track manager to hide the MIDI tracks in a project, selecting all the tracks, holding the control key to make a quick group and dragging one fader down a few DB (which drags all the faders down a few db). Do be careful when doing that though, you may mess up your gain staging in your busses and that can cause problems with bus comps and such. Shorter answer: if there's not a good way to just lower your volume in the tracks the gain knob will work fine. Dean
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bitflipper
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Re: can you fix a clip on the input into the master bus with the bus gain?
August 28, 13 9:51 AM
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☄ Helpfulby gswitz August 28, 13 9:17 PM
can you fix a clip on the input into the master bus with the bus gain?
Of course it's always better to keep levels under control at the track level, but in reality you can't clip the master bus. You can go over 0dbFS, but it won't actually clip. Not until it's converted to 24-bit integer data and sent to the audio interface. So yes, you can lower the input to the master bus or to your final limiter and "fix" a too-hot mix. Unless it's waaay over, this'll work just fine. I like to see signals on the master peak at < -6dB. Hotter than that and the limiter has no headroom to work with, and will be in limiting mode most if not all of the time. The result is flat-topped files that lack detail and clarity. But I have no problem fixing such a situation by simply lowering the input via either the gain slider or the input level attenuator on the limiter itself (if it has one).
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gswitz
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Re: can you fix a clip on the input into the master bus with the bus gain?
August 28, 13 9:17 PM
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StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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jm24
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Re: can you fix a clip on the input into the master bus with the bus gain?
September 03, 13 11:00 AM
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☄ Helpfulby gswitz September 03, 13 7:01 PM
I use a MAIN OUT bus for analysis and consistent volume level: The MAIN OUT bus: is the first bus, easy to see,... This is the listening bus controls the monitoring volume sent to the audio device does NOT have "effects." And no envelopes has monitoring tools: Voxengo Span, vintage meter, Panipulator The MASTER MIX bus is next, it is used for bounces, exports,.... ALL final effects are in the bin. This bus is output to the MAIN OUT bus. The MASTER MIX bus may have volume envelopes for fades and misc. adjustments. "Bounce to tracks" mixes and Export from the MASTER MIX bus. ---------------- Only two buses feed the MASTER MIX bus: VOCALS ALL, and INSTRUMENTS ALL. I follow this logic for all instruments as well. Each has its final bus feeding INSTRUMENTS ALL. This provide quick adjustment for each grouping: muting, volume, EQ, effects,... (I have track templates to create all or some of the various instrument buses: strings, purc, piano,...) --------------------- For bounces:: I add at least two blank tracks labeled MIX1 and MIX2, to projects. These output to the MAIN OUT. NOT directly to the sound device. I change the name of the mix tracks (and add the date) BEFORE bouncing-to-tracks so the created wav file will have a name that reflects the name of the track. This is useful. I then solo the mix track to listen to the mix(s). Which is routed through the MAIN OUT bus. And all the analysis tools are the same, and quick to open. Since the mix tracks are output to the MAIN OUT bus, there is no need to bypass the effects/eq, or change the volume setting of the MASTER MIX bus when listening to a mix track. And because the MAIN OUT bus volume is the same, I can compare, audibly and visually, the mix with the original tracks. ((Per CJ's insight, if the bounced track/mix does not sound correct, before I do anything else, I use control-z (undo) to remove the mix clip, and the wav file from the disk. This means I have fewer orphaned audio files.)) Simplified example: http://logicalarts.com/temp/SonarRouting0913c.jpg
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gswitz
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Re: can you fix a clip on the input into the master bus with the bus gain?
September 03, 13 6:59 PM
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jm24, that's awesome! I try to keep my mixes as simple as I can and still get the mix I want. I don't do anything every time. I've tried project templates, but I just almost never use them. I do use some track templates for multiple synth arrangements and SD3 stuff or multiple takes of a multi tracked recording where there is bleed between the tracks. I love your graphic and everything. Very useful to see it that way. And sometimes I separate the vocals from instruments too, but I wait until I need to for some reason. I don't start out that way.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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Jeff Evans
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Re: can you fix a clip on the input into the master bus with the bus gain?
September 03, 13 9:18 PM
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Also if you use K system correctly you will never clip anything. The VU meters on the tracks should all be showing the K ref level. The VU's on the buses will also only be reaching ref level. The VU's on the masterbuss will also only be showing the K ref level. The ref level means you are creating the rms component around the K ref level and you still have headroom to spare above that. eg 14 or 20 dB depending on your K ref level choice. Nothing will clip anywhere when you operate this way. You end up with a nice master that is averaging your rms level on the master buss with peaks only just reaching -6 dB or -3 dB at worst. Still with headroom present. If you were starting to overload the masterbuss the VU's on the masterbuss would start swinging wildly over the ref level or the 0dB Vu mark telling you straight away to start pulling tracks and busses down slighty in your mix. The Vu's actually warn you before you even get close to finishing your mix. Can't go wrong really. Peak only metering does not show you this sort of information. RMS metering that is way down on the scale is also not very helpful. It is a bit if a juggling act actually to get everything showing the right things everywhere and still you are hearing a great mix but it is possible and with practice it gets easier.
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gswitz
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Re: can you fix a clip on the input into the master bus with the bus gain?
September 04, 13 8:21 AM
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Jeff, I appreciate your post. As long as you can twiddle the master bus input gain nob, isn't it easy to switch between twenty, fourteen and twelve? After an initial mix, you could adjust input gain to use close to every available bit at the loudest moment and see where you have landed with regards to rms. Then you could work too further compress as necessary or tweak to get the mix you want.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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Jeff Evans
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Re: can you fix a clip on the input into the master bus with the bus gain?
September 04, 13 8:36 AM
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Firstly I think it is Ok to tweak the master gain if you need to but I tend to not want to move it far from unity gain. I don't like switching K reference levels during a project or near the end of a project. I much prefer to choose the K ref level before I start a project. The new test alignment ref level needs to be put onto a track and the VU's on tracks, buses and the masterbus all have to be set for the new ref level. With a digital mixer it is easy, all you have to do is select the test tone and change the ref level there and as I have hardware meters I just recalibrate them with a variable control. The loudest point in the music only reaches the rms K system ref level so you are not using every available bit as such. You don't have to do that especially at 24 bit. There is no guessing involved you are just at the right level and you know you have the headroom above to cope with transients usually without any clipping taking place anywhere. It is a good system because it prevents clipping usually. The Vu's tell you what is going on with buses and the masterbus especially. You will soon see of you are overloading buses because the VU's start to swing past where they are meant to land most of the time. The VU's also tell you from the ballistics of the meters too if your compressors are set correctly. When they are, the loudest parts just reach 0 dB Vu and don't go much past that. If they do then you have got a problem that needs to be sorted.
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bitflipper
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Re: can you fix a clip on the input into the master bus with the bus gain?
September 04, 13 10:49 AM
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gswitz As long as you can twiddle the master bus input gain nob, isn't it easy to switch between twenty, fourteen and twelve?
Sure. If you're shooting for K-14 but it's a little hot, just call it K-12 and you're done!
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gswitz
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Re: can you fix a clip on the input into the master bus with the bus gain?
September 04, 13 12:22 AM
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Bit, I love easy answers!
Jeff, this is a dumb question, but I have to use vu right? Rms is not sufficient.
I Do use rme digicheck for leveling tracks at times, but it is so much faster to do it by ear.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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Jeff Evans
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Re: can you fix a clip on the input into the master bus with the bus gain?
September 05, 13 3:38 PM
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☄ Helpfulby gswitz September 05, 13 7:10 PM
Once you start measuring the rms component of the sound it can be displayed on a meter of some sort. With many DAW's it will appear as some indicator but low down on the scale. It is harder to see down there and Sonar shows true rms which puts the indicator 3 dB lower again. Things are more difficult to see clearly down at -14 dB (-17 Sonar) or -20 dB. (-23 Sonar) The VU meter has a nice indicating system with a scale and the needle which shows a high FSD at 0dBu when the reference voltage is reached. There is 3 dB above the reference level on the meter which is adequate for showing signals that are starting to get a little high. It is very easy to see any indicator high up on a scale. And it moves with a ballistic movement which I firmly believe tells you a lot about whatever it is showing. A track, a buss or the stereo master. Real meters are very nice and I have built a very nice set. But the VST's are getting great in my opinion. They use little or no CPU resources and can be placed anywhere in the signal chain either in mono or stereo. I prefer the VST to show the original VU style indicator. There are many other GUI's that are not based on the original VU meter. http://www.bluecataudio.com/Products/Product_DPeakMeterPro/ While they are good they don't show as much as the ballistic stuff does. But I guess the ballistic behaviour of something the BlueCat meter can be learned. This display I must say is a class act and the movement of the meter can be observed for sure. I just feel the standard VU meter movement is very easy and nice to observe. The Klanghelm meters behave very similar to their hardware counterparts. http://klanghelm.com/VUMT.html They are cheap, install easily, can be calibrated to any reference level of course and offer many adjustments to the ballistic behaviour. There are alternate skins. The mono meter can sprout an extra needle and show two channels at once! Very cool. (You can see much more clearly the differences between left and right channels this way) The PSP meters look the part but I found the fall behaviour a little different to the real thing. Unless they have got it better. I maybe need to spend more time tweaking the ballistic behaviour a bit more. http://www.pspaudioware.com/plugins/tools_and_meters/psp_2meters/ I have devised a test that shows the ballistic movement. Rise and fall response. My real VU's are in close proximity to the bottom of my computer monitor so I can see all of them at once. You can almost mix using a VU meter. (many highly respected engineers have done it) Bringing drum levels up to a certain mark and bass and so on. You learn to allow for many things coming in. Adding lots of things to buses or the stereo buss especially where the mix sounds great and the VU's are just hitting 0 dB nicely. And not bouncing over at all. Dancing the right way. When you observe beautifully crafted mixes and mastered mixes the VU's dance a certain way. When your mixes start to sound the same the VU's move the same. When the dynamics on a track are even a little out of control or the mix on a buss or the stereo master sucks, the VU's tend to swing wildly and they don't dance well. When all your track, buss levels are just reaching 0 dB VU nicely everything is running at a perfect gain structure. No clipping anywhere, plenty of headroom above your rms component, least distortion anywhere because you are sitting well below any possible clipping points which could dirty your precious signal anywhere. It is the way it was all done before but for some silly reason modern DAW's have dropped it all together but it is easy to put back in. And we need our fast peak reading systems too to keep an eye on fast transients that are not going to make the VU move very much. (individual drum sounds that is but total drum mixes end up moving the VU very nicely) Both things (peak and rms) together work perfectly with each other.
post edited by Jeff Evans - September 05, 13 3:45 PM
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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