Do you always audition at the same volume?

I have been reading about the K-System, which I previously thought I had a handle on. You use VU Meters or slow averaging meters and pretend that the 0 level is some amount below the top... align them more or less and use that as a starting place for your mix... mixing with plenty of head room.
 
http://www.aes.org/technical/documentDownloads.cfm?docID=65
 
After reading this article, it seems that setting the volume in the room is an important component to the system. He suggests setting the left and right speaker volumes separately to ensure you are at the right volume in both.
 
I don't normally do this. In fact, I have usually intentionally auditioned tracks at widely varied volumes to see what it will sound like when volume is dialed below conversation level on the highway. Recently, I went back to a mix I thought was finished because I heard it at low volume on the way to lunch with a co-worker and I realized it could be improved for that environment without costing the main listening environment much.
 
Now, I'm wondering if that isn't just another form of the LOUDNESS WAR. Because I was adjusting levels for very low volume playback, was flattening some of the instruments in the mix (not compression in this case-volume automation).
 
I'm curious what you guys have to say.

Without going into the K system or SPL's or meters.....
 
Yes.
 
I have my system monitors set to the 50% detente mark on the volume controls and the interface control panel input and output levels set and I don't adjust them very often. (not in years) The levels I work at are comfortable to me setting at the desk and they pretty much remain the same from project to project. 
 
I can, and do change the volume as I work choosing to track and mix at lower levels quite often. I group the sound card master faders and pull them down from 0db for lower volume work.

I have the monitor amp about 1/2 way in my small room.  I usually mix at moderate levels, but have the TC Konnek 48 remote right at hand.  It is easy to pump up the volume to check it, or bring it down to see if the vocals/leads are still clear.  It is really nice to check at different volumes to see how a mix holds up.  And keep my interest, too, after focusing at one level on one part of the song for a good long while.  breaks things up.
 
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I find the small speaker down at low volume is really emphasising the mid range as Bit is referring to. My little speaker even has a tiny tweeter fitted but I have put a volume control in series with the tweeter so I can even turn it down/off and loose the highs if I need to leaving just the mids behind.
 
I like the idea of my whole mix being funneled into something so small or a bottleneck like that. I spend much more time on it than the mains in reality. I notice that when things are sounding very good and well balanced on that, the mains usually sound killer and there is not much more to do on them.
 
This obviously goes back to the Auratone days when many engineers used them as a reference. You can get the bass right too even on that, it is just a matter of learning what correct bass levels are and how they sound on it. It is also perfect for setting correct vocal levels for a song too. It tends to make you keep the vocals slightly down and in the music more but not buried either. Level wise the small speaker for me would be 70 dB SPL or less.
 
I sit close to it with it directly in front of me. The mono mix thing is also good for checking separation between parts and various things, mono compatibility and if big wide synth sounds are still there in mono! Reverbs are interesting on it too. If you can hear the reverb in the small speaker you have got too much reverb. When the reverb levels are just right they are just nice on the mains and barely audible on the small speaker.

This will sound sacrilegious to serious HiFi to folks, but until I'm seriously mixing I pretty much use Apple earbuds at moderate to low volume while I'm recording and doing some rough mixing.

As I get further along, I then start introducing reference songs and start using the Focusrite VRM Box while beginning to listen with more volume. I also have better headphones and use those when I feel the need.

Low volume for me works. I'm hoping to still have good ears left when I'm older to hear the birds singing outside, and of course to hear al the music I'm putting all this time into recording.

Hi Danni, 
With all due respect, your interest in playback correction systems just started making a lot more sense.  
 
Mixing down there makes it difficult to hear a balance of the frequencies.  The 77dBSPL to 85dBSPL range, described all the way back in the early 1970s, is where the phenomena described by Fletcher Munson curves begins to balance out and you get adequate bass response without turning up the low end EQ. If you get much louder the high end gets too loud and you'll probably mix that too low.
 
That's the range where most folks perceive a balanced frequency response.
 
That's why the theater business identified that range as the target range and suggested that consistency in that range would provide a quality experience to people where ever they are. The reason theater presentation has been a good guide is that the audience doesn't get to turn volume knobs or EQ... so you have to do your best to provide something enjoyable. (I know, I know... a lot of theaters play back too loud and some just sound suck ass).  
 
It has been recognized for so long that speaker designers target that range as well and make sure the cross overs or bi amp designs seem balanced in there. If they design a speaker to sound full range without supplementary EQ at 70dBSPL it will sound like boomy dog doo at 85dBSPL.
 
If you mix down at 70dBSPL, I think it is fair to say that you need EQ correction to craft a mix that translates. 
 
  
 
You can see that 90 has nice flat low end... but that's too loud for just about everyone to work at for very long without losing their ability to sort out the details. 90dBSPL may be great for the party but tedious for mixing.  
 
all the best,
mike   
 
 
 
edited

Hi Mike,
 
You're probably right in every thing you're saying as I know I've been mixing too low for a long time. However, it seems to work as weird as it may sound. Not just for the "0 ear fatigue" but (I swear I'm not padding this here) I just about get 0 call-backs for mistakes or revisions. I have a huge client base, some of which are so anal, some guys may not entertain the thought of such clients. I'm talking overly anal to the point of annoying. BUT....that was in the beginning when they first started working with me. They still remain anal, but each one of course needs different treatment. They don't even "check me" now because I'm locked in. And even in their anal days, it wasn't that they gave me a hard time, they were just super precise with things that only they would have heard, ya know?
 
So my point in sharing that is....I may have room issues in all my rooms....I have had room issues in some of the cold call rooms I've been asked to work in at other studio's...some of the things I say may not make sense...but honest they work for me with that little hypester named ARC. LOL! It's just something you'd have to experience either here or at my other place down the shore.
 
I have had a few guys from the Sonar forum stop around as well as guys from other forums I hang at. I always tell them to bring their mixes as well as reference mixes here so they can hear for themselves. They always seem to love how things sound here and....here's the kicker....they know they have problems with their own mixes yet can never seem to fix them in their bedroom studios. But when they are here, they hear all the stuff that's wrong and if they bring a Sonar bundle with them or another DAW bundle, they fix it on the spot and tell me when they get back home "dude, it sounds right now!"
 
Honest, if I were a fluke or not doing a great business here in my studio's seeing some really nice results, I'd never talk about the stuff I talk about. I'm sure there are 100 things wrong with everything I do in every room I do them in. But there has to be 200+ things that are right or I'd be working at Booger King. LOL! :)
 
-Danny

I have changed my view about working below 83 dB now. Yesterday I was up early and decided to start doing some mixing work but because of the rather early time I decided to work at a max level of only 75 dB SPL and I must say I liked it too. I think being fresh in the morning after a good rest and not hearing anything louder than that first enabled it to work very well and it sounded good.
 
I certainly find working at 75 dB hard after any lengthy work at 85 dB or higher. Then that is a tough one. Going back is not easy once you start louder. But I still feel that 75 dB you still have to be careful. I was not making important mix decisions but doing much more editing work instead. But it is a lovely volume for sure. The low and high end extremes are a little quiet and if you always worked there you would have to be careful about how much bottom end you were putting into your mix etc.. But like anything you can learn what the right amount of bass and high end sounds like at 75 dB.
 
Interesting after doing about two hours at 75 dB how loud 85 dB sounded then after people went to work. It sounded way louder, after all 10 dB is a fairly sizeable increase in anyone's language.
 
All interesting stuff. I am really grateful for having a permanent SPL meter set up and operating. It is very very good and it keeps your monitoring levels much more consistent. Your mixes will just get better if you do this and not much else.

I tried calibrating my system to 83/85 after reading Jeff's notes a couple of years ago and found it was not only too loud for me, but also the people downstairs!
 
78dB is about right for all concerned, and as soon as I get my studio back, I'll be recalibrating all over again.

tvolhein
With regard to the small speaker, I am thinking about getting an Avatone mix cube.  What does everyone think of that?
 
Thanks,
 
Tom

I've never used one myself Tom...but have heard nothing but great things about them from people on forums as well as guys in real life. These types of things are subjective though....so see if you can try one somewhere or at least have the option to return. I personally have great results turning off everything but one monitor and enabling mono interleave in Sonar when I want to check mixes that way. I can do it with every set of monitors I have. It may not quite be the Avantone, but it's worked beautifully for me for years doing things that way. :)
 
-Danny

On measuring loudness at the mix position...is this A or C weighted?

I am a small speaker fan from way back and I have talked about them here too. I also prefer one small speaker as opposed to two in mono. It is not the same thing. It is better to sum the L+R signals outside your DAW too and somehow just organise it on its own output. Any spare headphone output will be perfect for feeding the speaker too.
 
I love hearing the mix coming through what I call a bottleneck like this down at low volume. It reveals so much about your mix. Once you get things balanced well on this your main speakers up loud will sound killer. The only thing it does not reveal so well is what the very low end is up to and reverbs. But loud playing on your mains will soon put you in the picture with those two things. With reverbs if you are hearing them well on your small speaker it sort of means the reverbs are a little loud! After a while you get to know what the correct reverb levels sound like on the small speaker.
 
It is ideal for setting vocal levels into the music, in fact almost the only way to get that right. Also if you have say two or three parts that are all sounding a bit too similar they don't fair well on the small speaker down low in mono. The parts all end up lined up behind each other and not being distinct enough. It forces you to get in there and tweak the parts so they stand out more so when listened to on the speaker in mono again. Then in stereo and up loud you will find the parts sound way better and more distinct from each other. Much easier to separate. And because you have done some work separating them they can be turned down too for maximum illusion minimum voltage.
 
I absolutely love it and spend far more time on it than the mains. And I monitor pretty low on it too like 75 dB SPL or less. It also means you are not pounding your ears or your neighbours too which is always a good thing. Even though I can monitor at extraordinary volumes I tend not too because of this.
 
It is a technique that goes back decades and has been used for years by many many respected engineers so it is well proven. It also provides another reference to hear your mixes on which is not a bad thing anyway. When your mixes sound great on the small mono speaker I find they translate perfectly to everything. A good mix is a good mix no matter what you hear it on. If your mixes are sounding different on every speaker you try you are doing something very wrong. The small speaker goes a long way to eliminate that scenario.
 
The very (deep) bottom end is still another situation and the small speaker does not help you too much in that area but I find once everything else is right though it is easily tamed and brought into line. I do that up loud on my mains and in my car because my car has a hyped low end. Commercial CD's still have this low punchy sound in the car that does not rattle my teeth. If my mix is rattling my teeth (in the car) I go back and sort it out usually. I have through trial and error found what the ideal low end curves are in the mastering stage. You must get you bottom end right ASAP though because it effects everything else so much. The mix is still the better place to get your bass and kick levels just right. It is surprising though still how much the small speaker will tell you about the bass and the kick, it is not useless in this regard at all. It tends to emphasise the upper harmonics of those things and if you can still hear the bass and kick nicely in the small speaker then you are well on the right path.
 
 

Wow...what gems of information in this thread.

I am not sure how accurate that app is.