AnsweredIs the guitar too loud?

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The Maillard Reaction
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2013/09/08 09:27:47 (permalink)

Is the guitar too loud?

A question for my CH buddies:
 
Is the guitar too loud?
 
Please consider that I have left the voice to inhabit the full dynamic range... so sometimes the guitar is louder than the voice as per the intent of the artist.
 
How about in general?
 
I think I am yearning for a bit more definition in the guitar, but of course it is the way it is, and so I am afraid that I made it a bit too loud as compensation.
 
The singer-guitarist is 17 years old so for the most part I am amazed at the level of talent and the delivery of the material.
 
Please offer some critique about the "whole" rather than any specifics that can't be fixed now that the tracks have been recorded. I tried both singing and playing and playing then singing overdubs. This singing and playing take was the obvious keeper so any editing is curtailed by the fact that the 3 tracks have lots of bleed.
 
Detailed comments about stuff I might be able to tweak with some level adjusts or processing techniques are appreciated as well.
 
Thanks in advance.
 
Thanks everyone for the great help and suggestions. I pulled the link and made a review mix today.
 
best regards,
mike
 
post edited by mike_mccue - 2013/09/09 19:22:41


#1
cclarry
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Re: Is the guitar too loud? 2013/09/08 09:37:13 (permalink)
The balance is not bad...just a very minor tad down on the guitar would probably help the vocal
stand out a little more and help with the build up on the louder parts...
I don't think there is a problem with the definition of the guitar.  It sounds
good and balanced and clear.  Overall very nice...

BTW...she has a GREAT voice...

That's my 2 cents...


#2
The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Is the guitar too loud? 2013/09/08 09:40:42 (permalink)
Thanks for listening and offering an opinion Larry.
 
It's very helpful.
 
best regards,
mike


#3
Guitarhacker
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Re: Is the guitar too loud? 2013/09/08 09:49:34 (permalink)
Speaking as a guitar player..... there is no such thing as the guitar being too loud.
 
Speaking as a mix engineer (which I'm officially not) ........ it's possible.
 
On the specific example, I think it is good for the most part. If there are parts where one overtakes the other, ( in the artistic POV of the artist in question) .............a simple volume envelope inserted into one track or both would be the fix I would use to remedy the disparity.

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#4
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Re: Is the guitar too loud? 2013/09/08 09:58:18 (permalink)
Always a tricky one as I get to record a solo guitar singer/songwriter occasionally I am aware.
 
For me the balance sounds reasonable throughout, as suggested perhaps a little envelope tailoring might help.  It sounds very dry to me.

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#5
The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Is the guitar too loud? 2013/09/08 10:00:59 (permalink)
Thank you Gents,
 
I'll get in there and work the envelopes. I am transitioning from rough mixing a few different takes to focusing on this one take.
 
Very dry? That's a very helpful comment... I always think I have put too much reverb on it and I usually do. I have some reverb on it now and I'll try some more.
 
Thanks for the straight forward help!
 
best regards,
mike


#6
bapu
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Re: Is the guitar too loud? 2013/09/08 11:20:31 (permalink)
How about sidechaining?
#7
The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Is the guitar too loud? 2013/09/08 12:12:21 (permalink)
 
I don't side chain often, and if you mean to set up a duck for the guitar when the vocal is present... I think of that as an industrial short cut for occasions when time is more important than sensitivity to the art. There is some material where it is part of the art but in my opinion, this isn't one of them.
 
I just need to get in the mood and go in and do some work. I find it difficult to review and rough mix 6 takes and then immediately go to a serious mix. The process of asking questions here and getting some time away is helpful and now I have a sense of focus.
 
Thanks.
 
best regards,
mike


#8
bapu
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Re: Is the guitar too loud? 2013/09/08 12:40:02 (permalink) ☼ Best Answerby mike_mccue 2013/09/08 12:53:03
I was just ducking with you McQ.
 
#9
Moshkiae
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Re: Is the guitar too loud? 2013/09/08 12:50:32 (permalink)
Hi,
 
I'll listen to this when I get home from work ...
 
In general:
 
I think that one being louder than the other is a moment to moment thing ... and should not be a rule ... but we're stuck in this rock'n'roll definition that when the voice comes up the guitar goes down and when the guitar comes up the voice goes down.
 
You don't need to do that ... and you can hear it in Amon Duul 2 and even one of my favorites ... Cheap Thrills!
 
There is room for both to shine, if dones ... right ... with the proper accents ... but the guitar has to be there to accent the moment, not to take it away from the voice and vice versa ... and I think that is the part that we fail to work on and understand!

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#10
timidi
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Re: Is the guitar too loud? 2013/09/08 13:00:55 (permalink)
I don't think the guit is too loud. If anything, too soft (1 or 2 denceballs)...
 


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#11
The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Is the guitar too loud? 2013/09/08 13:06:32 (permalink)
Thanks Tim and Mosh.
 
I think I'm going to go in and just work the relationship with some care and make sure I feel like I did a nice job of show casing her voice.
 
best regards,
mike


#12
bayoubill
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Re: Is the guitar too loud? 2013/09/08 13:49:52 (permalink)
I don't think it's too loud Mike. I'd experiment with panning and widening effects for the separation of the voice and guitar. IMHO, the voice should be center and clear with the guitar set off center in stereo. Sounds great Mike! 

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#13
The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Is the guitar too loud? 2013/09/08 14:11:26 (permalink)
Thanks Bill,
 
 It's funny, I listened on my laptop and it doesn't sound too loud at all. On my bigger system, which has a full bass response it seems a touch loud.
 
 I have two close mics panned body/saddle hard left and body/neck joint hard right but I think there is a lot of guitar coming trough the centered vocal mic as well. I had a 2nd vocal mic up that has less guitar but this mic seemed to connect with her voice a lot better.
 
 The takes where we used a clean guitar part and a vocal overdub have more separation but this take has the best overall performance.
 
 I'll see what I can do to reduce the guitar in the center.
 
 
best regards,
mike 
 
 


#14
Jeff Evans
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Re: Is the guitar too loud? 2013/09/08 15:44:11 (permalink)
It is a very nice recording. My only feeling is I like the sound of her voice wise in the upper mids more than the guitar sound. I would EQ (very gentle boost over a wide band of frequencies) the guitar just slightly in the mids/upper mids/lower highs to bring it up in line just a tad with the vocals. (or roll of some low end and bring the guitar level up to compensate)
 
Listen to how the vocal changes its sound as you EQ the guitar.
 
As a result of some gentle EQ the guitar might sound as if it has come up in level so it may need to be tweaked down 1 or 2 dB to put the balance between guitar and vocals where it is now. Which is very nice.
 
You could also not change a thing and just enjoy the warmer smoother guitar sound in combination with the vocals that are very clear.  If you are going that way then guitar levels needs to be a little higher to sit well with the vocal sound like it is in this mix.
 
Just want to add too that my observations are based on wearing headphones, a decent set for sure but they might be pushing the bottom end a little which I suspect they are. But I know how my mixes sound on them which means they are reasonably OK. I will be keen to monitor it properly in my studio a little later. It is only 6 AM here right now. She sounds great too. I found myself listening to her totally and not even the recording. Very quickly in fact. She has got the magic.
 
 
 
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2013/09/08 15:54:58

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#15
bapu
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Re: Is the guitar too loud? 2013/09/08 15:46:10 (permalink)
DOH!!!
 
I was gonna say WWJD but now that we know, I'll just say WWDDD?
 
#16
craigb
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Re: Is the guitar too loud? 2013/09/08 16:14:40 (permalink)
Guitarhacker
Speaking as a guitar player..... there is no such thing as the guitar being too loud.



Hehe... Ya.

 
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#17
The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Is the guitar too loud? 2013/09/08 20:12:00 (permalink)
 
Thanks Jeff,
 I'm going at it first thing in the morning and I'll give your ideas a try.
 
 best regards,
mike


#18
Jeff Evans
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Re: Is the guitar too loud? 2013/09/08 22:51:02 (permalink)
Thanks Mike. Update: After listening to it in the studio I think the guitar only needs a very small amount of mid to upper mid range lift.
 
The voice is a little distinct from the guitar tone wise. It needs to be softened a bit perhaps and tame that sibilance down a tad too. I don't think the perfect vocal EQ has been found yet, but it is close. I hear a strong upper mid/hi range presence in the voice which could be tamed down with a notch around that area. And then get the guitar moving a little toward the voice sound with a slight mid/upper mid range nudge to make it a little mid punchy behind the vocals.
 
The voice needs to edited down in very loud areas too. No harm in doing that, it only makes things sound better. Some tasteful voice level editing goes a long way to a smooth classy vocal track. Still very nice the way it is.

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#19
Crg
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Re: Is the guitar too loud? 2013/09/09 19:04:12 (permalink)
No, the lyrics are too slurred.

Craig DuBuc
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Re: Is the guitar too loud? 2013/09/09 19:19:49 (permalink)
Crg
No, the lyrics are too slurred.



Ah, but haven't we all been there?

 
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#21
The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Is the guitar too loud? 2013/09/09 19:20:56 (permalink)
Well, that's why I didn't post in the songs forum... I didn't want to gather a bunch of critique of a 17 old singer.
 
Thanks.


#22
craigb
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Re: Is the guitar too loud? 2013/09/09 19:27:23 (permalink)
She strongly reminds me of Fiona Apple - in a good way.  Lots of potential there!

 
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#23
The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Is the guitar too loud? 2013/09/09 19:39:24 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby bapu 2013/09/09 19:45:05
There were takes with better annunciation but the soulful vibe and pacing of this take sold me on it.
 
I know her singing mentors and my thought is that she will get lots of encouragement to continue to grow and blossom.
 
I really wanted to do separate guitar and vocals takes so we could "fix" any thing that wasn't just the way we wanted with overdubs, but once again, this take seemed to be the keeper. I don't think you can push people into a state of grace, especially if you only met them a few minutes before you hit record.
 
I hope to get a chance to be helpful.
 
anyways... :-)
 
best regards,
mike
post edited by mike_mccue - 2013/09/09 19:54:05


#24
bapu
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Re: Is the guitar too loud? 2013/09/09 19:45:32 (permalink)
See Mike?
 
I marked you as helpful.
 
Your hopes have been met.
#25
The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Is the guitar too loud? 2013/09/09 19:53:38 (permalink)
Awesome!
 
:-)


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