AnsweredX3 upgrade price discrepancy ***ANSWERED*** Thanks Andrew.

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SteveStrummerUK
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2013/09/28 10:57:52 (permalink)

X3 upgrade price discrepancy ***ANSWERED*** Thanks Andrew.

 
The advertised upgrade price to US customers is $149.00, which at current currency conversion rates is £92.35.
 
We actually got charged £119.00, which definitely does not equate to $149.00 
 
£119.00 at current conversion rates is actually around $192 
 
Bearing in mind this is for a download, and not a boxed/delivered version, UK customers are actually paying $43 more for exactly the same product.

And even if they are adding on a further 20% VAT (our current rate) above the registered US price, it should still only be $178.80, or £110.80.
 
And if VAT is being added on top of the advertised price, I believe it should say so.
 
Our friends in the 'Eurozone' fare a little better, but not much - they are being charged €134.00, equivalent to $181/£112.

I don't believe this is very fair at all, but what do I know.
 
 
post edited by SteveStrummerUK - 2013/09/28 11:41:03

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chuckebaby
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Re: X3 upgrade price - are we getting ripped off yet AGAIN here in the UK? 2013/09/28 11:00:57 (permalink)
I just read in another thread.... No   :)
 
I believe they took in to consideration the euro and the $

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chuckebaby
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Re: X3 upgrade price - are we getting ripped off yet AGAIN here in the UK? 2013/09/28 11:02:45 (permalink)
PS.. if you confirm your not..
you should change the title of this thread.. it looks horid

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JenksTer
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Re: X3 upgrade price - are we getting ripped off yet AGAIN here in the UK? 2013/09/28 11:07:18 (permalink)
Yes, Blighty is getting ripped off, as per usual.
Cakewalk should charge international customers in USD.
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Re: X3 upgrade price - are we getting ripped off yet AGAIN here in the UK? 2013/09/28 11:08:49 (permalink)
sorry, I guess what I read on another thread wasn't what you were looking for steve because you read it too.

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Re: X3 upgrade price - are we getting ripped off yet AGAIN here in the UK? 2013/09/28 11:08:49 (permalink)
Hi Steve-
 
It looks like there is about an $9 difference due to currency fluctuations.
 
If you take $149 and add 20.5% VAT, it would come out to a little over $181. If you did 119GBP and converted it straight, it would be $190. 
 
We set these prices a month ago for retailers so it will vary in either direction. We did try to make themm fair.
 
Surprising, EURO is dead on. $181 either way you do it.
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Andrew Rossa
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Re: X3 upgrade price - are we getting ripped off yet AGAIN here in the UK? 2013/09/28 11:10:04 (permalink)
SteveStrummerUK
 
The advertised upgrade price to US customers is $149.00, which at current currency conversion rates is £92.35.
 
We actually got charged £119.00, which definitely does not equate to $149.00 

£119.00 at current conversion rates is actually around $192 
 
Bearing in mind this is for a download, and not a boxed/delivered version, UK customers are actually paying $43 more for exactly the same product.

And even if they are adding on a further 20% VAT (our current rate) above the registered US price, it should still only be $178.80, or £110.80.

And if VAT is being added on top of the advertised price, I believe it should say so.
 
Our friends in the 'Eurozone' fare a little better, but not much - they are being charged €134.00, equivalent to $181/£112.

I don't believe this is very fair at all, but what do I know.
 
 




And that price is VAT inclusive.
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SteveStrummerUK
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Re: X3 upgrade price - are we getting ripped off yet AGAIN here in the UK? 2013/09/28 11:16:23 (permalink)
 
Thanks Andrew.
 
But whichever way you slice it, we're actually paying nearer 29% more.
 
And as to conversion rate fluctuations, yes, I understand that, but we actually paid exactly the same 29% more last year for the X1→X2 upgrade.
 
And how come US customers don't pay any tax on their purchase, your tax laws are making me want to emigrate.
 

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Re: X3 upgrade price - are we getting ripped off yet AGAIN here in the UK? 2013/09/28 11:18:01 (permalink)
Andrew Rossa [Cakewalk]
 
 
It looks like there is about an $9 difference due to currency fluctuations.
 




There it is !!!
 
Charge everyone in $$ and currency fluctuations will not be a problem for you. Other US retailers seem to manage this.
 
BTW X3 looks great. :)
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Re: X3 upgrade price - are we getting ripped off yet AGAIN here in the UK? 2013/09/28 11:19:33 (permalink)
Online purchases + no taxes is a wonderful thing!  But I believe that may be changing, at least in some states.   I guess we shall see...
 

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Re: X3 upgrade price - are we getting ripped off yet AGAIN here in the UK? 2013/09/28 11:19:37 (permalink)
Have the conservatives adjusted our vat up to 20.50%!
 
I thought it was 20%   
 
With Roland not involved any more.. will Et Cetera resuming their role as update supplier or is this now only done via internet?
 
 
 
 
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Re: X3 upgrade price - are we getting ripped off yet AGAIN here in the UK? 2013/09/28 11:21:49 (permalink)
SteveStrummerUK
 
Thanks Andrew.
 
But whichever way you slice it, we're actually paying nearer 29% more.
 
And as to conversion rate fluctuations, yes, I understand that, but we actually paid exactly the same 29% more last year for the X1→X2 upgrade.
 
And how come US customers don't pay any tax on their purchase, your tax laws are making me want to emigrate.
 




We are required to include VAT in price per EU law. US tax laws are different. Can't do anything about that. Regarding this release though, the price is close but not exact as you mentioned.
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Re: X3 upgrade price - are we getting ripped off yet AGAIN here in the UK? 2013/09/28 11:22:24 (permalink)
Elffin
Have the conservatives adjusted our vat up to 20.50%!
 
I thought it was 20%   
 
With Roland not involved any more.. will Et Cetera resuming their role as update supplier or is this now only done via internet?
 
 
 
 




Etcetera does carry our products. 
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Andrew Rossa
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Re: X3 upgrade price - are we getting ripped off yet AGAIN here in the UK? 2013/09/28 11:23:00 (permalink)
paulo
Andrew Rossa [Cakewalk]
 
 
It looks like there is about an $9 difference due to currency fluctuations.
 




There it is !!!
 
Charge everyone in $$ and currency fluctuations will not be a problem for you. Other US retailers seem to manage this.
 
BTW X3 looks great. :)




Something we have considered. It's on the table down the road but not right now.
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Re: X3 upgrade price - are we getting ripped off yet AGAIN here in the UK? 2013/09/28 11:27:49 (permalink)
Well, current exchange rate is about 62 cents to the pound sterling.
 
Therefore $149=£92.38
 
However Cake have to apply 20% VAT at source (or face potential repercussions), which takes us to £110.85.
 
Then currency conversion costs on top, plus the need to market at a fixed price if they're going to offer sales in sterling so a bit of protection against currency fluctuations is wise, and there you go with the other £9 or so.
 
Remember that Cake absolutely have to take VAT at source under UK/EU law (and pass that VAT on) or they (and their owners) face penalties that can include freezing of assets (e.g. boxed sets imported into the UK/Roland or Gibson products). The VAT has to be calculated on what the customer pays in sterling, not in dollars, and is chargeable on the currency conversion fee if the customer is paying it. If the price were only in dollars, we'd have to account for the VAT ourselves, pay it to Cake ourselves, then Cake pass the (varying with currency rates/different card issuers) VAT payments to HMCR. Horribly complicated.
 
That we manage to sometimes buy software from the Sates without paying VAT etc. is really because some companies ignore the requirements of Her Majesty's Customs and Revenue. A company that has any seizable assets in the UK may find it wiser to play things by the book.
 
So personally. I ain't complaining about £119.

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SteveStrummerUK
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Re: X3 upgrade price - are we getting ripped off yet AGAIN here in the UK? 2013/09/28 11:37:47 (permalink)
 
Andrew, please don't misunderstand my motives in starting this thread - I'd quite happily stump up £150, £200+, whatever... for the goodies on offer in X3. The price is what it is, and I'm absolutely delighted to be able to continue to support Cakewalk.
 
But let's be honest, we've been having the conversation about this discrepancy, and whether or not you are going to start charging everyone in US dollars since I first joined these forums.
 
And I don't understand how you can charge the rest of the world exactly the same price as you do to US customers. Don't countries in South America, Japan, China, Africa, Russia etc. have the equivalent of VAT/Purchase Tax that you should be adding?
 
It's not like it's a one off, in just my short time as a Cakewalk customer (from Guitar Tracks 2 onwards), I feel like I've easily overpaid more than enough to pay for an upgrade.
 
Anyway, I appreciate your answering my concerns, I'm happy that my concerns have been addressed, and I'm pleased to hear that this anomaly might be addressed in future.
 
I'm happy to let the matter lie and I'd go as far as suggesting that you remove this thread (if you weren't going to anyway). I certainly don't want to be seen as a party-pooper on such an important day for you guys' future.
 
Long live Cakewalk, and all who sail in her.
 
 
 
 

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Re: X3 upgrade price - are we getting ripped off yet AGAIN here in the UK? 2013/09/28 11:42:53 (permalink) ☼ Best Answerby SteveStrummerUK 2013/09/28 12:16:58
SteveStrummerUK
 
Andrew, please don't misunderstand my motives in starting this thread - I'd quite happily stump up £150, £200+, whatever... for the goodies on offer in X3. The price is what it is, and I'm absolutely delighted to be able to continue to support Cakewalk.
 
But let's be honest, we've been having the conversation about this discrepancy, and whether or not you are going to start charging everyone in US dollars since I first joined these forums.
 
And I don't understand how you can charge the rest of the world exactly the same price as you do to US customers. Don't countries in South America, Japan, China, Africa, Russia etc. have the equivalent of VAT/Purchase Tax that you should be adding?
 
It's not like it's a one off, in just my short time as a Cakewalk customer (from Guitar Tracks 2 onwards), I feel like I've easily overpaid more than enough to pay for an upgrade.
 
Anyway, I appreciate your answering my concerns, I'm happy that my concerns have been addressed, and I'm pleased to hear that this anomaly might be addressed in future.
 
I'm happy to let the matter lie and I'd go as far as suggesting that you remove this thread (if you weren't going to anyway). I certainly don't want to be seen as a party-pooper on such an important day for you guys' future.
 
Long live Cakewalk, and all who sail in her.
 
 
 
 




I hear you. In a way, charging in USD might be simpler down the road. We have discussed internally. 
 
But so customers don't think we are cheating them. The GBP price is only about $9 more when you include VAT.
 
Euro price is identical when you include VAT.
 
So when you compare the price of SONAR in USD vs Europe, please compare $180 to the current conversion. Not $150. That's what I am saying.
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SteveStrummerUK
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Re: X3 upgrade price - are we getting ripped off yet AGAIN here in the UK? 2013/09/28 11:46:38 (permalink)
 
Will do, and thread title changed.

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Re: X3 upgrade price - are we getting ripped off yet AGAIN here in the UK? 2013/09/28 13:58:46 (permalink)
Just out of interest... would it be cheaper for us Brits to purchase via your European store?

as we are 'currently' members of the EU it should be possible for us two purchase on the European shop?

if someone with clever maths and law skills could work out any benefits for us or Cakewalk?
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Re: X3 upgrade price - are we getting ripped off yet AGAIN here in the UK? 2013/09/28 14:04:13 (permalink)
I would guess that something would prevent you from doing that or everyone would just select USD store and pay the cheapest price of all.
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Re: X3 upgrade price - are we getting ripped off yet AGAIN here in the UK? 2013/09/28 15:44:25 (permalink)
Well I'm not sure I understand how it works. I bought LA scoring strings for $1248 via paypal from the uk. So I know I paid the same price as anyone in the US regardless of conversion rate. Had it been your system it would have been way out of reach. So how can they do it and guys like you and IK multimedia for instance have to have separate stores for US EU UK

Can I point out that I'm not trying to be argumentative, just wondering where the law starts and choice ends.

Anyway, best of luck with X3, hope it has the impact you guys deserve, we can all see how hard you have worked.

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post edited by wizard71 - 2013/09/28 17:05:50

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Re: X3 upgrade price - are we getting ripped off yet AGAIN here in the UK? 2013/09/28 15:53:09 (permalink)
SteveStrummerUK
And how come US customers don't pay any tax on their purchase, your tax laws are making me want to emigrate.
 


It is the United States of America, and for historical reasons a hodgepodge of often irrational and conflicting laws. Your VAT is a nationwide tax, our sales taxes are levied by states, counties and municipalities. So the store across the street may be collecting a different tax than the one you are shopping.
 
One thing all of the states are pretty much agreed on is that they should collect tax on purchases wherever they are made. Hence in addition to sales tax on items bought locally, most states require you to pay a use tax on items bought outside of their jurisdiction and brought into the state. The buyer is supposed to keep track of all the foreign items he buys and file a form with payment each year for what he owes. Collection of that tax is spotty, as not all citizens do as they are supposed to do. So states tend to investigate and enforce it at the level of say yacht sales, but not at the level of candy bars or software downloads. 
 
Because they have very good federal government lobbyists, online companies were able to exempt online sales from collection at the point of sale, and the states lose billions of dollars in revenue because of this.
 
A businessman acquaintance once looked into the tax requirement of his work travel, and found that in addition to the thirty odd state income tax forms he was legally required to file (in some cases being subject to tax on the same income in more than one state), he also was required to file property tax forms on the value of his laptop computer, prorated by the number of days he had stayed in a hotel, in dozens of jurisdictions for the city county and state where the hotel was located.
 
Still want to move here to get better tax laws?
post edited by slartabartfast - 2013/09/28 16:29:07
#22
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Re: X3 upgrade price - are we getting ripped off yet AGAIN here in the UK? 2013/09/28 17:54:39 (permalink)
the yearly vat / price thing.. you deal with other US companies, then you know they aren't "styling it out" .. presonus and studio one, izotope and a few more I deal with.
 
I will prefer to buy a boxed version of a UK reseller = that way the UK lot get something also.
 
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tlw
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Re: X3 upgrade price - are we getting ripped off yet AGAIN here in the UK? 2013/09/28 18:17:36 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby wizard71 2013/09/29 04:16:12
wizard71
Can I point out that I'm not trying to be argumentative, just wondering where the law starts and choice ends



Well, obviously I can't answer for any company, and I wouldn't claim to be A VAT expert, but as I understand it, there's no choice involved. It all basically boils down to whether the vendor is VAT registerable, and complying with UK/EU law or not.
 
There are two aspects to any law. What the law says, and actually enforcing that law.
 
If a US company sells services (which is what downloaded software counts as) into the UK then if it sells more than the VAT registration threshold (currently £79,000/year I think) it legally has to register for VAT, charge VAT and pass the VAT on to HMRC. If a company is part of a group/corporation then it may be sufficient for the parent company of the group to be registered and handle all the VAT centrally.
 
The penalties for not doing so can include fines and seizure of goods or financial assets.
 
Who the penalty is exacted against depends on who counts as the seller. Which may not be the software company themselves, it may be their publisher or "parent" company in the case of a corporation.
 
Enforcement is a matter for HMRC. They certainly have gone after software/music/video retailers in the past.
 
Personally I think we're lucky that software is considered "electronic services" and not "goods". If it were "goods" then we'd have to pay duty as well.

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