Erratic waveform displays in main track when using comping

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cparmerlee
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2013/09/30 12:30:37 (permalink)

Erratic waveform displays in main track when using comping

First, I love the Comping feature in X3 -- Speed comping is fantastic.
 
But something is very strange.  Audibly, everything is working as expected.  But the waveform displayed on the main track seems to have about 30dB more than it should and it looks like the track is clipping, even though it isn't.  There seems to be some kind of scale problem here.  My hunch is that it is a bug where the various comping lanes are being summed for display purposes, although they are not being summed for the audio output.
 
Has anybody else observed this?
 
It isn't a crisis.  The feature produces the desired results, but the display is just a bit alarming.

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17 Replies Related Threads

    FastBikerBoy
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    Re: Erratic waveform displays in main track when using comping 2013/09/30 12:34:36 (permalink)
    A large waveform in the comp track would suggest there is more than one audible clip at that point in the lanes. That's what I'd check, remember it will still display unless the clip itself is muted. i.e. if the lane is muted it won't sound but will display.
     
    That's where I'd check.
    #2
    Dan Gonzalez [Cakewalk]
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    Re: Erratic waveform displays in main track when using comping 2013/09/30 12:42:24 (permalink)
    cparmerlee
    First, I love the Comping feature in X3 -- Speed comping is fantastic.
     
    But something is very strange.  Audibly, everything is working as expected.  But the waveform displayed on the main track seems to have about 30dB more than it should and it looks like the track is clipping, even though it isn't.  There seems to be some kind of scale problem here.  My hunch is that it is a bug where the various comping lanes are being summed for display purposes, although they are not being summed for the audio output.
     
    Has anybody else observed this?
     
    It isn't a crisis.  The feature produces the desired results, but the display is just a bit alarming.


     
    Could you post a picture of what you mean? I'm taking a look at it right now and just want to be sure as to what the issue looks like exactly.
    #3
    tKx5050
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    Re: Erratic waveform displays in main track when using comping 2013/09/30 13:22:56 (permalink)
    OT - Carl, I'm downloading your X3 video. Doing my part to help get that bike out of the shop.
     
    Steve

    Steve
     
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    #4
    cparmerlee
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    Re: Erratic waveform displays in main track when using comping 2013/09/30 16:02:05 (permalink)
    FastBikerBoy
    A large waveform in the comp track would suggest there is more than one audible clip at that point in the lanes. That's what I'd check, remember it will still display unless the clip itself is muted. i.e. if the lane is muted it won't sound but will display.
     
    That's where I'd check.



    What you are describing may be exactly what is happening, but that's not what I would have expected.  When comping, the feature automatically mutes all the lanes except for the chosen clip.  So they are not "audible", meaning you hear only one lane's worth of audio and that is not clipping.  But the main track's waveform display seems to sum the other lanes and that loops like it is clipping.  But it isn't completely predictable -- at least no pattern I have been able to discern.  (With software there is ALWAYS a pattern, even if the pattern is not obvious,)

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    FastBikerBoy
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    Re: Erratic waveform displays in main track when using comping 2013/09/30 16:13:45 (permalink)
    tKx5050
    OT - Carl, I'm downloading your X3 video. Doing my part to help get that bike out of the shop.
     
    Steve




    Thanks for the support. I have fallen off my bike more times this summer than I have the last ten years so I need all the help I can get.
    #6
    cparmerlee
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    Re: Erratic waveform displays in main track when using comping 2013/09/30 16:30:41 (permalink)
    Dan Gonzalez [Cakewalk]
    Could you post a picture of what you mean? I'm taking a look at it right now and just want to be sure as to what the issue looks like exactly.

     On that particular project, I did revome all muted clips and then flattened the comp.  At that point, the display looked right.  In other words, I would not expect the main track's waveform to change at all when you issue the "remove muted" or "flatten" commands, but it definitely did.  I would have thought the main track's waveform would always correspond with "What U Hear", so to speak.
     
    I went back to an earlier version to reproduce a screen shot.  This somewhat contradicts my theory in a previous post as the clipping values sometimes start in the middle of a segment.  Notice where the time cursor is.  At that point, it appears the volume is much louder, and distorting.  But in fact, there is no such change in the sound.  The sound is as one would expect from looking at the T4 clip.  I should be clear here, there are only two take lanes.  I had already deleted T1 and T2.  You are looking at the entire track.

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    #7
    Dan Gonzalez [Cakewalk]
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    Re: Erratic waveform displays in main track when using comping 2013/09/30 17:00:21 (permalink)
    cparmerlee
    Dan Gonzalez [Cakewalk]
    Could you post a picture of what you mean? I'm taking a look at it right now and just want to be sure as to what the issue looks like exactly.

    On that particular project, I did revome all muted clips and then flattened the comp.  At that point, the display looked right.  In other words, I would not expect the main track's waveform to change at all when you issue the "remove muted" or "flatten" commands, but it definitely did.  I would have thought the main track's waveform would always correspond with "What U Hear", so to speak.
     
    I went back to an earlier version to reproduce a screen shot.  This somewhat contradicts my theory in a previous post as the clipping values sometimes start in the middle of a segment.  Notice where the time cursor is.  At that point, it appears the volume is much louder, and distorting.  But in fact, there is no such change in the sound.  The sound is as one would expect from looking at the T4 clip.  I should be clear here, there are only two take lanes.  I had already deleted T1 and T2.  You are looking at the entire track.


    Would you be able to send me a bundle file so that I could take a look at it and dissect the problem?  I can't reproduce this on my end.
    #8
    stevec
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    Re: Erratic waveform displays in main track when using comping 2013/09/30 21:46:32 (permalink)
    I wonder if the WOV files could be coming into play...   If you clear the picture cache does the track redraw the same?  
     
    This is assuming, of course, that the comps are handled the same way - no idea since I don't have X3 yet.  
     
     

    SteveC
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    #9
    cparmerlee
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    Re: Erratic waveform displays in main track when using comping 2013/09/30 21:55:17 (permalink)
    One factor that may contribute to the problem is that I think the first take lane was recorded with the sound-on-sound take lanes option. The documentation says that comping is supposed to be selected by default, but it wasn't in my case.  So perhaps some mode got set, and then I switched to comping behavior.  It looks as if the waveform might be randomly choosing to sum the values.

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    CareyLetendre
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    Re: Erratic waveform displays in main track when using comping 2013/09/30 23:13:10 (permalink)
    I've noticed this too.
     

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    Featherlight
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    Re: Erratic waveform displays in main track when using comping 2013/10/01 00:43:05 (permalink)
    Yeah, we are seeing the same behavior here as well.

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    chrisby
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    Re: Erratic waveform displays in main track when using comping 2013/10/01 01:14:37 (permalink)
    May have nothing to do with it but... I only recently started actually using my X2 install and in the 1st project I started I got half way through before I noticed that even though my asio settings were for 24-bit, my tracks were being saved in 16-bit. I found the setting (in "preferences/folders" somewhere?) and reset to 24 bit. A while later I noticed that everything recorded prior to the switch was clipped at -6db. I opened in sound forge just to be sure and saw the same thing. Damn, lost all my work I though. Re-recorded my tracks and then noticed a funny thing... the original tracks weren't displayed as clipped anymore. 
     
    So, any chance you changed your folder/wav file resolution settings (figure a lot of people might since they will be fresh installs of x3).... just a stab, but weird to see someone having near the same issue I just had with x2.
    #13
    brundlefly
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    Re: Erratic waveform displays in main track when using comping 2013/10/01 01:28:45 (permalink)
    CareyLetendre
    I've noticed this too.
     



    That is clearly a shot of Sound on Sound recording where none of the clips are muted so the comp clip will sum the amplitudes. Only if you have lanes muted (not visible in this shot) will you not hear this summing as well as seeing it.
     
    I guess there's an argument to be made that muting a lane should subtract its amplitude from the comp clip in the same way that clip muting does. But if you use the comp tool and clip muting as intended in comp recording mode, you shouldn't see this kind of discrepancy (notwithstanding the OP's example which might be an actual bug).
     
    EDIT: Correction. I wasn't in front of my DAW when I posted that. I just checked, and muting lanes is properly reflected in the comp clip just as muting clips is. If you're not hearing the summing displayed in that cropped screenshot with no clips muted, I'd want to see the full context.
     
     
    post edited by brundlefly - 2013/10/01 01:50:13

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    FastBikerBoy
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    Re: Erratic waveform displays in main track when using comping 2013/10/01 01:59:25 (permalink)
    CareyLetendre
    I've noticed this too.
     





     
    That one is what I'd expect to see. All of the take lanes have audible clips in them. The comp take at the top is showing the sum of those lanes.
     
    EDIT: Doh...... sorry Brundlefly, I'm duplicating your post. NOte to self...... read whole thread before posting.
    #15
    Dan Gonzalez [Cakewalk]
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    Re: Erratic waveform displays in main track when using comping 2013/10/01 10:44:03 (permalink)
    I'm currently taking a deeper look into this issue. If you guys have a step by step or a formula for reproducing this in a brand new projects then please share so I can get a concrete understanding of this. 
    #16
    cparmerlee
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    Re: Erratic waveform displays in main track when using comping 2013/10/01 12:12:58 (permalink)
    Dan Gonzalez [Cakewalk]
    I'm currently taking a deeper look into this issue. If you guys have a step by step or a formula for reproducing this in a brand new projects then please share so I can get a concrete understanding of this. 



    For the others who are interested, I sent Dan the project that produced this problem, and it is similarly misbehaving for him.  But I cannot recall the exact sequence of things that produced the problem.  I'll lay out some things that are a little out of the ordinary with this project, hoping that one of them might trigger a thought or two:
     
    1) The project was created under X2.  It was MIDI-only under X2. I recorded the audio track after upgrading to X3.
     
    2) When first recording, my project was in sound-on-sound more.  I changed to comping mode after I had already created 2 take lanes.
     
    3) After recording my takes, I didn't follow the recommended speed-comping procedure at first, as this was my first use of the comping feature.  I tried to promote phrases using the mouse.  I believe by that time, I was already seeing the strange waveforms.
     
    4) At one point, I used the split tool when I probably shouldn't have.
     
    5) After I figured out the recommended work flow for auditioning the takes, I breezed right through it, but the damage was already done.

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    #17
    Dan Gonzalez [Cakewalk]
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    Re: Erratic waveform displays in main track when using comping 2013/10/01 14:51:56 (permalink)
    Thank you, we have been able to reproduce this and are looking into it further.
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