Thinking about getting on the Sonar train, a few questions.

EDIT Not sure why but the forum is blocking all my URL's???
 
Hey guys, I am a composer, producer and have done 90% of my work in Reason until now. Not sure if this is the right forum or not but years ago I used Sonar for a TV commercial because that's what the studio had I was working at for the project. 
 
I don't remember much about it, but I did like. I have been a Mac user for years, but as of late it seems that PC may be the way to go for production. I write a bunch of music for hip-hop guys, as well as music for video games and indie films ETC. I LOVE Reason the workflow is amazing, but I am getting more and more requests for Orchestral work and I find myself getting pretty limited by the sound options. 
 
 I need versatile. I will never give up Reason, but I need another tool to supplement for a few things. 
 
Reason doesn't have video support so I have to use third party products just to handle some of my recent work. I have been deciding between Cubase and Sonar. I HATE dongles, so Cubase may get ruled out and I have been playing with a Demo of Sonar and I LOVE the skylight interface. I planing on buying some of the Project Sam libraries so I have some decent string sounds. At any rate here are my questions.
 
#1 Cubase has note expression this seems really amazing, anything like this in Sonar?
 
#2 How stable has Sonar X3 been for you guys? I see lots of complaints but that doesn't necessarily reflect reality. 
 
#3 how happy are you with Sonar overall?
 
#4 the Gibson buyout has me a bit concerned, but this is not a deal breaker. Anaything I should be worried about?
 
#5 Mac version ever???
 
So what do you guys think, is Sonar a good fit for me? I like so much about it. But gosh it is a huge commitment and I want to make a well informed decision. Thanks in advance for your thoughts! 

#1 Haven't upgraded to X3 yet (still on X2a), but I doubt note expression will be comparable to Cubase 7.
 
#2 Again, not on X2 yet, but I'm sure it's solid depending on your system, of course. been on every version of Cakewalk since 1993, so I'm sure it will be stable.
 
#3 It has been my DAW of choice for 20 years, and has been a ROCK. I use it professionally. However, it is not a great tool (IMO) for scoring to picture. You can (and I have), but it is very limited to what video can imported, etc, and has a few other quirks. This is the ONLY reason I switched to Cubase 7, which is fantastic for film work. I understand that X3c is around the corner, and has a fully revamped video options and improvements. If they resolved the main issues, I will be upgrading and calling Sonar "home" once again. Because honestly, I love it. I also use Pro Tools regularly (and Logic from time to time), but Sonar is just so darn easy to use and is......SOLID. Others will dispute this, but I literally have had only a handful of crashes over the years, and they were usually due to a bad driver or VST.
 
#4 Absolutely not. People get their panties in a knot for nothing.
 
#5 My answer from Cakewalk is always NO. Would be nice to have it on one of those new Mac Pro's when they come out!!
 
On another note, the instruments that come bundled are fantastic (Z3ta and Rapture are killer), but I'm not a fan of the orchestral stuff. For that I use mainly EastWest products, which work seemless in Sonar.

1 I don't know what note expression does or how it works. I do know that there are tons of things MIDI can do to make things sound good. 
 
2 Its very stable.
 
3 I am very happy with Sonar and it has been my goto DAW for a long time. I have Cubase SX 1 through 3. 
 
4 I'm not worried by Gibson at all. 
 
5 No Mac version.
 
I can't say if it is a good fit for you it is for me. 

Thanks for the reply's so far. Things I love about Sonar so far. Skylight is amazing, fantastic UI. It does seem like it has some pretty cutting edge features. I like supporting companies that don't treat their customers like criminals, so I hate having a dongle. Also Cakewalk tech support does seem top notch. 
 
Those that have used Note Expression, is it a big enough of a deal to look in to Cubase for? Lots of my friends seem to be raving about it, obviously I don't have anything like that in Reason now. But if I am buying another tool to get better sounds I really want to think this through. On another note I would LOVE to get the new Mac Pro, but it really seems Windows maybe be the way to go for a while at least for audio production. I do love Core Audio/Midi on OSX as far as I can tell there is really no windows equivalent that is easy to use. But I am looking at building a crazy 8 core i7 with 32gb of ram to replace my aging core2quad and I can do the entire thing for $1800 with loads of storage and ultra high quality parts. As i'm sure you guys know its kind of feast or famine in this business and I am at a place where I have a few extra $$$ to invest in a new rig and some decent plugins. Anyway, I welcome your thoughts! 

Hello,
 
Here's my take for what it's worth. :)
 
1. I have never had a problem scoring or editing/creating midi in Sonar. Between the piano roll view and staff view, I have never understood why so many have been begging the Bakers to develop the scoring aspect of Sonar. I've done Symphony stuff, Opera scores....between step sequencer and the tools we have to edit and control midi, I really can't see where you'd have a problem. I've not used Cubase in years, but have always liked the way they handled notation. That said, never a problem in Sonar for me personally.
 
2. The stability of Sonar depends on how tight your pc is built and maintained as well as how you use your system. A person that has a clue on how to maintain a Windows system that also knows how to set up a Windows system for audio, should not see any show stoppers unless a third party plug is involved that may be problematic to Sonar exclusively. I have been using Sonar since 1997 I believe and though we had a few tough releases coming up through the trenches, to this day it remains my #1 go to DAW. It's extremely stable with a good pc. Heck, it's extremely stable for me when I use my stock Dell Inspiron's using a Realtek soundcards and ASIO4ALL drivers. But some Windows system knowledge is important to get the best out of it. Nothing too intense, but it can really help as well as knowing how to tweak Sonar a bit for your particular needs.
 
The new Sonar X3 was up running with a project for me for days without a save just to see if I could make it crash as well as how long it would take to crash it. The project was a test project that didn't matter to me, but it never crashed and I didn't save one time for days. This has been one of the best versions of Sonar I have ever used.
 
3. Incredibly happy. Sonar has more tools, weapons, plugs and instruments that sound great right out of the box than any other DAW software I have. The stock plugs in Sonar obliterate the competition hands down. Granted, some of the other DAW's have some good stuff here and there, but our Sonitus stuff alone crushes just about anything in the others. Again, I've not tried the new Cubase, but I'm basing my opinion from PT 11, Logic, Reaper, Nuendo, Sequoia, and Studio One. All those programs are really good, but I think Sonar is light years ahead of them for how *I* record and work over here.
 
4. Don't sweat Gibson. The same staff that is creating Sonar will be the same staff that does it until otherwise stated. If anything, since Tascam is a trusted name in the recording industry, it will help to elevate Sonar as well. The Gibson name can only bring more attention to Sonar whether it be good or bad. In this business, it's when they stop talking about you that you worry. :)
 
5. As of now, no MAC version and it probably won't happen. However, we've been rock solid using Boot Camp on this end without a hitch. So don't sweat it. I really think the MAC vs. Windows thing depends on what your needs are as well as how you use a computer. I've been a Windows man since 1995. I have every system I have ever used (except for one that I sold and one that a storm took out) still up and running perfectly. 2 boxes running Win 95, one running 98 SE, 2 running XP, one Running Vista, 5 running Win 7. All are absolutely perfect, can run the audio programs that were created for their time (some can run later software) and only one machine has been reformatted 2 times out of the bunch.
 
I'm no computer guru, but I keep my pc's tight and well maintained. I have also done much research on what should be running on a Windows box and what can slow it down. That's one of the things to think about when you compare a mac to a Windows box. Once you disable all the stuff that doesn't need to be running on a Win machine, it totally changes your experience for the better. Every one of my pc's has tweaks to make it run better without over-clocking. I do the normal scan-disc, defrag, and clean out my registry when I uninstall something. I remove folders that are left behind after an install. It takes some work, but once you get used to it, these baby's will hang right with any mac. But again...it depends on what you're trying to do.
 
We have decent video software for Win machines...but in my opinion, you're better off running a mac for that stuff. But for audio...no machine is better than another really. I like Win better myself though we have two macs. It just becomes a personal preference once you get the Win machine where you want it. Good luck in whatever you decide.
 
-Danny

thedreampolice
 
Those that have used Note Expression, is it a big enough of a deal to look in to Cubase for? Lots of my friends seem to be raving about it, obviously I don't have anything like that in Reason now. But if I am buying another tool to get better sounds I really want to think this through. 

I'm relatively new to Cubase but what I absolutely love is that you can call up different articulations from a menu and insert it in the score or PRV.  That frees me from the tyranny of keyswitches.    For large libraries like EWQL it's great since I don't have to mess up the score with extra notes and I can easily eyeball where all my articulation changes are and WHAT they are.  Also you can have controllers attached to single notes.  Very cool.  If you use notation there is no comparison, Cubase is the way to go.  If not there are pros and cons to both.

I have not needed notation at all since college years ago and I feel if I did for a project I would just export the midi parts from whatever DAW I was using in to Sibelius anyway, so notation TO ME is not a big deal either, but that articulation stuff sounds pretty darn nice. I bet X4 will having something like that in it. The Cubase UI on the other hand has gotten pretty messy it seems and that seems like a big deal to me so its a trade off maybe. Oh and Pad shop looks fantastic! Also I do know my way around Windows pretty darn well (IT guy in a former life) so keeping windows up and running is no big deal, I PERSONALLY like Apple's design ethos better, but at the end of the day I need the tool to work for my needs regardless. 
 
As far as the WDM stuff, core Audio/Midi is actually much better than even ASIO, there is a bunch of routing you can do in the OS itself as well as aggregate devices that Windows just can't do at all. But I don't use those features much at all.

I think notation enhancements might be coming to Sonar in the not too distant future. People have been clamoring for notation upgrades. That said, I would think they have a lot of work ahead of them to catch up with some of the other notation apps out there. It's hard to know what they might be thinking for the future.
 
I like the app as it is. Sonar has always been more than I need. -- Stable > Full of possibilities > annually adding new features and toys.
 
The Video has worked well for me when I use it (I don't use it professionally but still... the videos are pretty great). You need some codec skill if you are going to try to get it to work in odd formats. I can be mainstream so it's plenty enough for me. I think it works great at high quality. People who are trying to post to YouTube may find it overkill (although there is some new YouTube feature I haven't tried yet in X3).

gswitz
I think notation enhancements might be coming to Sonar in the not too distant future. People have been clamoring for notation upgrades. That said, I would think they have a lot of work ahead of them to catch up with some of the other notation apps out there. It's hard to know what they might be thinking for the future.
 
 

Notation will never be addressed in Sonar.  They haven't done anything meaningful in almost 20 years.  It's not going to happen.

In all fairness I think you're gonna get mostly pro-Sonar comments in a Sonar forum, and in some cases downplay of Cubase selling points.
I haven't used Cubase's note expression but from the demos I saw and what I've read, it seems a great feature and one that would be welcome in Sonar, somewhat akin to what ARA does for Melodyne integration. If I quantize my midi performance (shudder), I would like to move the controller data (such as pitch bends and modulation) with it. Right now, that doesn't happen. I would like to set different controller values per note (although this of course depends on the synth supporting that or not), right now I can't. These are limitations of the midi spec and it is a good thing that Steinberg is finally kicking against it. We've already started to see changes in this area in general, such as the OSC protocol gaining in popularity.
 
That said, I don't really MISS it right now. I find ways around it. We found ways to use Melodyne without ARA too. It was just more work, and you couldn't do all of the same things.
 
Most modern mainstream DAWs are somewhat comparable in function, but they all do and show things in a subtly different way. I would go with the one where the workflow and look of things seems to click most with you. The best DAW is the one where you know which button to press.

If you can delay the commitment for awhile I would wait for a demo version. Both Cubase and Sonar are incredibly powerful for the money spent. But bear in mind that you are going to be spending a great deal of time with your DAW...so if there is something in whichever DAW you chose that drives you bonkers you are going to get very tired of it over time.
 
Most DAWs seem to be in a process of leap-frogging each other. Cubase had VST3 first, Sonar was first with 64bit...Sonar now has ARA technology but Cubase has Note Expression.
 
I never thought I would have but it seems I have ended up a multi-DAW user and I can say that I can't really say I prefer one over the other. I prefer aspects of each one and I try to play to their relative strengths.
 
Between Cubase and Sonar my slant is this: Sonar for Workflow and logic that I understand. Cubase for look and feel. But they are both awesome.
 
Sonar can be run on a Mac using Boot Camp. I don't think you will ever see a native Mac version of Sonar because Cakewalk, particularly since X2a has really started to incorporate the 'Touch' feature set of Windows 8. That is an OS specific function call that could not be made in a Mac.
 
Good luck in your choice, regards,

If you're thinking about a host (slave) machine for your VST's, I highly recommend scrapping Reason and using Cubase or Sonar running VEPro 5. You simply connect up to four slaves via ethernet...works great! You can even run a free demo from http://www.viennaensemblepro.com/
 
The cool thing is, you can use a mix of PC and Mac. I have used it with both C7 and Sonar X2 and it is fantastic...especially for huge orchestral templates.