kev11111111111111
Max Output Level: -57.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1772
- Joined: 2006/12/10 16:29:36
- Status: offline
Law on sampling ?
Hi ! I read recently about this producer who used samples galore in a song he did. It wasn't full phrases or loops though... he was taking 'clips' such as the attack portion of a guitar sample,or the release. In other words most of the samples were likely to be under a second,even half of a second in a lot of cases.These samples were then blended with others to make a new sound. How does that work with copyright ? Is the law still as strict in these cases as it is in say a 5 second loop ? If I were to find a decent isolated clarinet staccato sample and then loaded that into a sampler to make a new melody with it - is that still a breach of copyright ? I know it would be easy to layer the sound so the original 0.5 sec sample wouldn't be recognizable - I've got a feeling this is pretty common practice too (the producer I mentioned above made a lot of money with this record so I wouldnt be surprised if a lot of producers are doing this ),but what are the legal implications ? Anyone any ideas ?!! Thanks Kev
|
Guitarhacker
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 24398
- Joined: 2007/12/07 12:51:18
- Location: NC
- Status: offline
Re: Law on sampling ?
2013/10/23 08:26:30
(permalink)
Copyright still applies.... there is no "free samples" or a time length restriction. If you didn't create it and someone else did.... it's covered by the laws. You might wish to contact the Harry Fox Agency since they are one of the largest clearing houses for music licensing in the world. I don't deal with using copyrighted material so I'm not completely up to speed on the newer rules.... but I do believe they have a new category for streaming music and downloads as well as samples. They would be the experts in this new area of copyright that has been emerging in the last few years as the use of downloads and samples becomes more popular. http://www.harryfox.com/public/DigitalLicenseslic.jsp I didn't see anything specifically related to samples and licensing, so look into this and contact HFA for the word from the ones who oversee this licensing. Samples are not free no matter how short.... so do it legally.... or make your own sounds from scratch and you don't need to worry.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
|
kev11111111111111
Max Output Level: -57.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1772
- Joined: 2006/12/10 16:29:36
- Status: offline
Re: Law on sampling ?
2013/10/23 09:28:24
(permalink)
Ah ok,I thought as much.You need a license no matter the length of the sample. Thanks for the link but I'm not sure this is the right site for me after reading the FAQ - its says Among other uses of music, the following cannot be licensed using HFA’s Songfile. Click on each item for more information: Recordings with samples I think the standard procedure is to contact the publisher and pay an upfront (quite hefty !!) fee and then make an agreement to split the royalties. For rookie producers such as myself its just not worth the cost of using a recognized sample in my work. You would of thought though if you were just using a 0.5 portion of a sample which isn't recognizable as belonging to a tune,the cost of using it wouldnt be as severe ?! I guess at the end of the day when clearing a sample,you gaining permission for the musical aspect and the recording aspect,so maybe they would treat it the same way and charge the same.I dont know !!LOL. Thanks for your input anyway Kev
|
bitflipper
01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
- Total Posts : 26036
- Joined: 2006/09/17 11:23:23
- Location: Everett, WA USA
- Status: offline
Re: Law on sampling ?
2013/10/23 11:13:25
(permalink)
People have been sued for using James Brown's grunts and shouts. Kinda silly, really, to steal a recording of something you could just as easily create yourself and be legally in the clear. OTOH, the Amen Break is the foundation of entire pop genres and nobody ever paid a nickel to the guy who created it. The safest route is the way television productions handle it. They obtain or buy libraries of pre-cleared material which can then be used without the hassle of getting permission from each copyright holder. Most of these are pay-as-you-use libraries: you get gobs of material and only pay for what you actually put into a TV show or commercial. For most, it's easier and cheaper to buy libraries outright that have an explicit license to use them any way you like. Companies such as Nine Volt Audio, for example, specialize in such products.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
|
AT
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 10654
- Joined: 2004/01/09 10:42:46
- Location: TeXaS
- Status: offline
Re: Law on sampling ?
2013/10/23 11:38:35
(permalink)
Harry Fox (as far as I know) is for copyright of the song, not using someone else's mechanical recording of the song (which would include the sampling rights). If you want to re-record a song, they are the company to write. I'm not sure who you would contact for samples - I'd start w/ the distributor/record company. They tend to hold on to those rights. If you sign a contract these days for any content it will include the boilerplate "across the known universe" and such terminology. Legally, you can't use a "sample" no matter how short - since is someone else's creation. In practise, you need to ask yourself two questions. 1. Is your work likely to get wide play? If you put it in a store or get placement on the radio you are setting yourself up for a world of hurt. 2. Is anyone likely to recognize the stolen work after it has gone through your audio chop shop? If you steal a kick hit and layer it w/ two others and compress and notch the bejebers out of it, I doubt if anyone will recognize it. You still have to sleep w/ yourself at night, but if the "sound" is so altered, what is the point of using it in the first place? The Wooster Group (one of NYC's leading avant-garde theater companies - Willem Dafoe, Steve Busemi, Spalding Gray) did a take-off of Henry Miller back in the 80's. Mr. Miller sent a cease and desist letter. So they kept the same lines they had used, but re-arranged the words so they were gibberish. That worked legally and artistically, but only because everyone was in on joke. good luck.
post edited by AT - 2013/10/23 11:40:26
https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome http://www.bnoir-film.com/ there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
|
kev11111111111111
Max Output Level: -57.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1772
- Joined: 2006/12/10 16:29:36
- Status: offline
Re: Law on sampling ?
2013/10/24 13:38:10
(permalink)
bitflipper People have been sued for using James Brown's grunts and shouts. Kinda silly, really, to steal a recording of something you could just as easily create yourself and be legally in the clear. OTOH, the Amen Break is the foundation of entire pop genres and nobody ever paid a nickel to the guy who created it. The safest route is the way television productions handle it. They obtain or buy libraries of pre-cleared material which can then be used without the hassle of getting permission from each copyright holder. Most of these are pay-as-you-use libraries: you get gobs of material and only pay for what you actually put into a TV show or commercial. For most, it's easier and cheaper to buy libraries outright that have an explicit license to use them any way you like. Companies such as Nine Volt Audio, for example, specialize in such products.
Hi ! Its fairly understandable for record companies to wanna sue artists for totally taking off a record,like the J Brown example you mention.I'm not talking about riffs though,I mean more sampling lots of differant sounds (Short sounds !! under 1 sec) and combining them into something new. So it might comprise of attacks,sustains,releases etc of a mixture of samples and then all these things combined to make a new sound.The end result would be a good sound made from samples but one thats not recognizable as being taken of a record. I know about the Amen Break,I think I saw a video about it on youtube ! Yes it sounds like nearly everyone has done something with this sample - it surprises me that the person who created it didnt get anything back money wise for it.. I use sample libraries.Thanks for the pointer on Nine Volt Audio,I'll check them out ! As for the pay as you use libraries,thats something to consider I guess if I ever got a commission to write for a show and I'd know the music was used just in the context of the show,so yep thanks for this idea. Thks for your input Kev
|
kev11111111111111
Max Output Level: -57.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1772
- Joined: 2006/12/10 16:29:36
- Status: offline
Re: Law on sampling ?
2013/10/24 14:13:18
(permalink)
AT Harry Fox (as far as I know) is for copyright of the song, not using someone else's mechanical recording of the song (which would include the sampling rights). If you want to re-record a song, they are the company to write. I'm not sure who you would contact for samples - I'd start w/ the distributor/record company. They tend to hold on to those rights. If you sign a contract these days for any content it will include the boilerplate "across the known universe" and such terminology. Legally, you can't use a "sample" no matter how short - since is someone else's creation. In practise, you need to ask yourself two questions. 1. Is your work likely to get wide play? If you put it in a store or get placement on the radio you are setting yourself up for a world of hurt. 2. Is anyone likely to recognize the stolen work after it has gone through your audio chop shop? If you steal a kick hit and layer it w/ two others and compress and notch the bejebers out of it, I doubt if anyone will recognize it. You still have to sleep w/ yourself at night, but if the "sound" is so altered, what is the point of using it in the first place? The Wooster Group (one of NYC's leading avant-garde theater companies - Willem Dafoe, Steve Busemi, Spalding Gray) did a take-off of Henry Miller back in the 80's. Mr. Miller sent a cease and desist letter. So they kept the same lines they had used, but re-arranged the words so they were gibberish. That worked legally and artistically, but only because everyone was in on joke. good luck.
Ok thanks for clearing that about Harry Fox. For both questions its not really that relevant to me - I dont sample of records and I dont expect to release something with someone elses sample on any kind of scale.I just want to understand the implications of it better after reading this article http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul12/articles/it-0712.htmIts the producer of Gotye. What really grabbed my attention was this quote - A very short Luiz Bonfa acoustic guitar sample provided the first spark; de Backer then constructed the entire arrangement as a gigantic sample collage, partly using extensively manipulated one-note samples from vinyl records and other sources, and partly sampling himself playing individual notes on various instruments. Which sounds amazingly cool to me !!!! One note samples from vinyl and other sources....this is what got me thinking,well thats great but what are the legal implications ?? Hence my post on here. I wonder if this producer cleared these samples and I wonder if I was to do something similar,whether I'd have to clear them too. I've been sampling for about a year using sample libraries and I'm slowly getting into more depth behind the sampling process.The idea of taking attacks / releases is something I'm playing more and more with in my own work.I guess its safe to just carry on using the sample libraries I've bought,but it does make you wonder what the other possibilities are,especially after reading articles such as these in SOS !! Thanks Kev
post edited by kev11111111111111 - 2013/10/24 14:15:29
|
Guitarhacker
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 24398
- Joined: 2007/12/07 12:51:18
- Location: NC
- Status: offline
Re: Law on sampling ?
2013/10/24 18:06:53
(permalink)
Harry Fox Agency is not for filing or obtaining a copyright. Yes, they work with copyrighted material BUT.... you must apply for a copyright with the US Library of Congress, not HFA. HFA simply acts as a middle man for the vast majority of copyright holders who do not wish to handle the licensing and collection of the licensing fees. Two different things.... don't get them confused.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
|
Jeff Evans
Max Output Level: -24 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5139
- Joined: 2009/04/13 18:20:16
- Location: Ballarat, Australia
- Status: offline
Re: Law on sampling ?
2013/10/25 07:55:52
(permalink)
I think the sample has to be recognisable. If it's not and you cannot associate what you hearing to something that may have contributed to that sound then it becomes your sound because you have created it. And what you play from then on will also have no resemblance to the original sound. You could take a sharp attack with a horn blast or some very short sound. Transpose it down a few tones, put it into a granular synth and reconstruct the sound particles a bit, tune it down an octave, loop it, reverse part of it and double the sound, pan left and right and detune then go in create a new ADSR shape. What you have then is something that has no bearing on the original sound. It could be argued it is your sound now. The way the use of samples has been discussed here is only one approach. Sure you can do interesting things with them. But cut them right down and rebuild a sound and create something completely new out of it is open to being a very viable way to adding to your sound design technique. There is no copyright infringement here as far as I can see. How is it ever going to be linked back to its original source. You don't have to disguise things so much either. I recorded a group of world musicians playing, certain things at certain tempos. If I wanted to use that music as it is as performed and add to it I would need to get the go ahead from those players and that is fair enough. I made the recording and own the recording copyright. A lot has changed since then (1995) I could re arrange every bar now and create music that was never played at the time, percussive rhythmical grooves that had no relationship to the original performance, now at any tempo and pitched to different key to what was originally recorded. Who owns that material now and has the right to overdub other parts to it and release it. I have a pretty good feeling it is me. What about taking an original performance and creating a sample CD full of one shot sounds only. Totally new and unrelated performances can now be created using the sampler with these one shot sounds loaded. You are creating an instrument now with its preset. What about this concept. A flute player is playing a lovely melodic lines on a deep wooden flute, phrases and a total musical performance. But every now and then lands on a note and just sustains that note. How about I sample only the long notes, perfectly loop them in the right parts to turn that into infinite sustain. These notes end up inside my Emulator say or Kurzweil and of course I can fill in all the other notes around the ones I recorded. I now have the perfect Emulator or Kurz patch that plays perfectly and chromatically over two or three octaves. Is this my sound now? I say yes it surely is because the music that I will play with it will never resemble the music from which the long notes came. With the world musicians I recorded they all agreed at the time that anything recorded during these sessions would be basically mine to use as I saw fit. I have enough material there to say create 7 or 8 CD's of just one shot samples alone. But I did say that if I used any of the material as it was intact in terms of how the others played it, any income I made form that track would be split 50 / 50 between myself and the other players. There were many sections where the playing was incredible and does not need to be changed at all, just overdubbed with additional material. My material makes the music twice as interesting so that is the reason for the 50/50 split. I am into the microscopic use of sound and samples from anything at all. Designing it in such a way that the original sound ends up creating something totally different. Does it matter then what the original sound actually was. If a lot of creativity goes into creating the final sound then the creator deserves the recognition for doing it.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
|
wizard71
Max Output Level: -74 dBFS
- Total Posts : 836
- Joined: 2012/02/12 05:45:05
- Location: UK
- Status: offline
Re: Law on sampling ?
2013/10/25 10:24:59
(permalink)
I wonder at what point the law would deem it recognisable or not. Changes for each one I guess. Complicated business.
http://www.youtube.com/SpaceTimeAceshttps://soundcloud.com/space-time-acesSonar Platinum - Win 8.1 x64 - Haswell 4770k - ASrock Z87 pro3 - 32gb ram - Fractal design R4 case - 3x HDD 1 USB 2.0 external 1x cr M4 ssd for samples - Octa-capture - Sontronics Aria - Sontronics STC-1s - BX8 monitors - ARC 2 system - Kawai CA63 piano - Kawai MP6 Stage piano - Fender custom Telecaster FMT - Yamaha LL6 - Fender P bass
|
AT
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 10654
- Joined: 2004/01/09 10:42:46
- Location: TeXaS
- Status: offline
Re: Law on sampling ?
2013/10/25 11:29:28
(permalink)
To be clear, it is illegal to use someone else's work in and as your own. You could take one sample - a literal .0001 second sample you didn't record and it would be illegal. If anyone else cared and they could prove it. As a practical matter, not bloody likely. The copyright owner would have to "hear" your work and recognize their contribution and prove it in a court of law. Of course, there is the rub. James brown's estate likely has more money than you and a lawyer that is familiar w/ the process. If you made money off his work they would get all that you made and more. See The Verve V Rolling Stones. If you are doing music professionally, it ain't worth it. As bit sez, find a library which like government work is close enough. Or do it yourself. Or if you have lots of money get one of the services that will replicate a Ringo snare hit by renting abbey road studios (the same room) and find the snare and head and kind of stick used on the session and do a "hit" for you. SOS had a lengthy article about that. Practically, if you just want to muck around and take a james brown "ugh" and muck it up and layer w/ a hippo fart and lion roar and use it on a self-produced CD that you hand out to family on Christmas you aren't likely to suffer any repercussions. Nobody will hear it, and if they do won't know where you got it. And even if they did, they would demand you destroy any remaining copies and give them the "master tape". Two real examples. Todd Haynes, the film maker, did an early film using a Barbie doll in Superstar, the Karen Carpenter Story. You won't find a copy, (tho it is on youtube) not because the Carpenter family objected (she was a public figure, after all), but Mattel objected to the use of copyrighted Barbie. It was a crude, underground film that caught on by an experimental artist right out of college. Of course, the PR was great and Todd went on to do Hollywood (he's a talented guy, which never hurts, even in Hollywood). The other was at the same time in NYC (80's). I did sound for him in the after hours clubs he promoted. One of his other ventures was selling baseball caps when wearing them backwards became a "thing" (before then the only person to wear them so was Goober from Andy Griffith). He had some with "Coco and/or "Chanel" made and sold them to downtown shops. Of course, NYC was a fashion central and the hats got play in the fashion/lifestyle rags as well as the streets and cool people parties. He sold about a 1000. All that happened was he got a cease and desist letter from Coco's lawyers. Draw your own conclusions. @
post edited by AT - 2013/10/25 11:30:56
https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome http://www.bnoir-film.com/ there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
|
kev11111111111111
Max Output Level: -57.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1772
- Joined: 2006/12/10 16:29:36
- Status: offline
Re: Law on sampling ?
2013/10/26 08:03:51
(permalink)
Jeff Evans I think the sample has to be recognisable. If it's not and you cannot associate what you hearing to something that may have contributed to that sound then it becomes your sound because you have created it. And what you play from then on will also have no resemblance to the original sound.
Yes I totally agree. Its not very artistic just to sample 5s of a riff and go THATS MINE !!! The point is for me (and you by the sounds of it) to create something new out of something old.Musically everything sounds like something,thats for sure. Theres not a single melody thats been written that doesnt sound like something else.If there was a melody that was unique,within a short time every would be trying to duplicate it !! lol. I think sampling gives the music another edge,a new story to tell. Jeff Evans You could take a sharp attack with a horn blast or some very short sound. Transpose it down a few tones, put it into a granular synth and reconstruct the sound particles a bit, tune it down an octave, loop it, reverse part of it and double the sound, pan left and right and detune then go in create a new ADSR shape. What you have then is something that has no bearing on the original sound. It could be argued it is your sound now.
Sounds like fun :) The possibilities really are endless and definitely if you taking a sound through this kind of sculpting it wont bear any resemblance to the original. Its your sound now,with your stamp on it. Jeff Evans The way the use of samples has been discussed here is only one approach. Sure you can do interesting things with them. But cut them right down and rebuild a sound and create something completely new out of it is open to being a very viable way to adding to your sound design technique. There is no copyright infringement here as far as I can see. How is it ever going to be linked back to its original source.
Yep thats right. I think when people hear sampling,straight away they think you must be talking about phrases or loops.I had a chat once with an engineer (years ago) and he asked me if sampled.I said no,and he asked me did I use a reverb plugin in my music or did I own a reverb chamber lol. Sampling takes place on lots of levels ..the more you learn about it and do it,then definitely the more it can help you design and construct new sounds. As for the copyright,I dont know if theres a way for a sample to be linked back,I'm skeptical about that too. Jeff Evans You don't have to disguise things so much either. I recorded a group of world musicians playing, certain things at certain tempos. If I wanted to use that music as it is as performed and add to it I would need to get the go ahead from those players and that is fair enough. I made the recording and own the recording copyright. A lot has changed since then (1995) I could re arrange every bar now and create music that was never played at the time, percussive rhythmical grooves that had no relationship to the original performance, now at any tempo and pitched to different key to what was originally recorded. Who owns that material now and has the right to overdub other parts to it and release it. I have a pretty good feeling it is me. What about taking an original performance and creating a sample CD full of one shot sounds only. Totally new and unrelated performances can now be created using the sampler with these one shot sounds loaded. You are creating an instrument now with its preset.
Yes I've been in touch with a big band recently and this is a project I want to do with them.I'd record hits,falls,riffs etc and then sample it galore :) Loads of fun,sounds very similar to you world music project. Jeff Evans What about this concept. A flute player is playing a lovely melodic lines on a deep wooden flute, phrases and a total musical performance. But every now and then lands on a note and just sustains that note. How about I sample only the long notes, perfectly loop them in the right parts to turn that into infinite sustain. These notes end up inside my Emulator say or Kurzweil and of course I can fill in all the other notes around the ones I recorded. I now have the perfect Emulator or Kurz patch that plays perfectly and chromatically over two or three octaves. Is this my sound now? I say yes it surely is because the music that I will play with it will never resemble the music from which the long notes came.
Beautiful :) Jeff Evans With the world musicians I recorded they all agreed at the time that anything recorded during these sessions would be basically mine to use as I saw fit. I have enough material there to say create 7 or 8 CD's of just one shot samples alone. But I did say that if I used any of the material as it was intact in terms of how the others played it, any income I made form that track would be split 50 / 50 between myself and the other players. There were many sections where the playing was incredible and does not need to be changed at all, just overdubbed with additional material. My material makes the music twice as interesting so that is the reason for the 50/50 split.
Sounds fair. Jeff Evans I am into the microscopic use of sound and samples from anything at all. Designing it in such a way that the original sound ends up creating something totally different. Does it matter then what the original sound actually was. If a lot of creativity goes into creating the final sound then the creator deserves the recognition for doing it.
We're on the same page :) Thanks for your input,I really enjoyed reading your post. Kev
post edited by kev11111111111111 - 2013/10/26 08:05:39
|
kev11111111111111
Max Output Level: -57.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1772
- Joined: 2006/12/10 16:29:36
- Status: offline
Re: Law on sampling ?
2013/10/26 08:33:47
(permalink)
AT To be clear, it is illegal to use someone else's work in and as your own. You could take one sample - a literal .0001 second sample you didn't record and it would be illegal. If anyone else cared and they could prove it. As a practical matter, not bloody likely. The copyright owner would have to "hear" your work and recognize their contribution and prove it in a court of law. Of course, there is the rub. James brown's estate likely has more money than you and a lawyer that is familiar w/ the process. If you made money off his work they would get all that you made and more. See The Verve V Rolling Stones.
LOL the Verve blatantly stole that riff yep. There was a coldplay song too which took not just a couple of notes,but a whole chunk of a melody from a kraftwerk song. I dont have much time for this kind of practice.The sampling I'm talking about is more on the micro level (see Jeffs post he talks about it in some depth) - and using not copyrighted material but royalty free CDs. I defo wouldnt want to get stung the same way the Verve did :( I'd have to sell my gear and live in a shed if I did,lol. AT If you are doing music professionally, it ain't worth it. As bit sez, find a library which like government work is close enough. Or do it yourself. Or if you have lots of money get one of the services that will replicate a Ringo snare hit by renting abbey road studios (the same room) and find the snare and head and kind of stick used on the session and do a "hit" for you. SOS had a lengthy article about that.
Yep,I use these libraries now.Mainly Zero G. I'm considering recording a big band myself because there is absolutely nothing on the market which has convincing horns / brass. Sometimes there's no alternative really,then to get the mics out and record the real thing !My mate is doing a music degree and its poss we might be able to use their studio on site to record.Looking forward to it,I'm sure we'll learn lots this way. AT Practically, if you just want to muck around and take a james brown "ugh" and muck it up and layer w/ a hippo fart and lion roar and use it on a self-produced CD that you hand out to family on Christmas you aren't likely to suffer any repercussions. Nobody will hear it, and if they do won't know where you got it. And even if they did, they would demand you destroy any remaining copies and give them the "master tape".
Yep,sampling is not an issue if its not only heard by a few people.Not that my nan would appreciate a song with a James Brown ughy hippo fart on it though.I think there would be some repercussions LOL :) AT Two real examples. Todd Haynes, the film maker, did an early film using a Barbie doll in Superstar, the Karen Carpenter Story. You won't find a copy, (tho it is on youtube) not because the Carpenter family objected (she was a public figure, after all), but Mattel objected to the use of copyrighted Barbie. It was a crude, underground film that caught on by an experimental artist right out of college. Of course, the PR was great and Todd went on to do Hollywood (he's a talented guy, which never hurts, even in Hollywood). The other was at the same time in NYC (80's). I did sound for him in the after hours clubs he promoted. One of his other ventures was selling baseball caps when wearing them backwards became a "thing" (before then the only person to wear them so was Goober from Andy Griffith). He had some with "Coco and/or "Chanel" made and sold them to downtown shops. Of course, NYC was a fashion central and the hats got play in the fashion/lifestyle rags as well as the streets and cool people parties. He sold about a 1000. All that happened was he got a cease and desist letter from Coco's lawyers. Draw your own conclusions. @
Cool story,sounds like a very clever guy.Fair play to him :) Thanks for your input Kev
|
Guitarhacker
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 24398
- Joined: 2007/12/07 12:51:18
- Location: NC
- Status: offline
Re: Law on sampling ?
2013/10/26 08:42:53
(permalink)
I think that as Jeff pointed out in post #9 paragraph 2... I doubt the original creator of said sampled clip would be able to recognize their own work after all that....unless someone told them or leaked that fact to the media somehow. so would it then be your own creation? It could be argued either way as Wizard pointed out in post #10. The final decision would be made by a jury of your peers.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
|
Jeff Evans
Max Output Level: -24 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5139
- Joined: 2009/04/13 18:20:16
- Location: Ballarat, Australia
- Status: offline
Re: Law on sampling ?
2013/10/26 08:52:33
(permalink)
Thanks Kev it is all rather interesting. And as I was saying there are two or more forms of sampling. One where recognisable parts of things are attempted to being used and other approaches where those original things are no longer recognisable. I don't completely agree with AT though. If I took a well known or very identifiable sound and mangled it into something else I would not hesitate in using it in any commercially viable production , a soundtrack or any situation where I was making money. Reason is that I am the only one on the planet that is going to know how any sound started off and how it ended up. I would never be caught out in this situation because the original sound source would never be known or identified. But I sort of agree with Dave too in that if you were going to do something like that then there is no reason why you could not make the starting sound yourself and mangle it from there. I am not really one for using other people's sounds or samples in the long run anyway. I tend to make them myself. You don't need James Brown to make a grunt or shout, anyone can do that and then work on that sound. It is just as viable in the end. For me the tricky bit is more like the world music musicians I mentioned and starting with one thing but altering it to form another. Different grooves, tempos, keys etc. Is that acceptable? Or can we take a multitrack session of a band say and use it to create one shots and small phrases to form the basis of sampler presets. And what if you cannot ask the musicians involved in the original recording. (I have still got every multitrack reel to reel from 1983 to when I stopped using tape, good resources wouldn't you say?) What do you do then? What if it was done in such a way that none of the original played music was recognisable. These are tricky questions. Most are going to say I cannot use it but I tend to disagree. Others have pushed the boundaries (and got away with it) way more than this proposal I am suggesting for using those reel to reel multis.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
|
dubdisciple
Max Output Level: -17 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5849
- Joined: 2008/01/29 00:31:46
- Location: Seattle, Wa
- Status: offline
Re: Law on sampling ?
2013/10/28 16:05:38
(permalink)
Jeff, from a legal point , AT is 100% correct. Most of the hypotheticals you pose are the legal equivalent of "if we disguise our crime and get away with it, is it still illegal". I suppose nothing is illegal if you don't get caught. We know that many people mangle the hell out of samples and get away with it all the time. There are whole genres of music based on just that. Obviously, nobody is going to go after someone for a crime that nobody is aware is being committed. If you want to take a james brown grunt, put it through a granular synth and then slap wobble bass style LFO's on it until james himself would not know it was him, I doubt you will get sued, but I doubt the success of such a hit , if it became a hit would be due to the public's love for James Brown. I think AT's point was that if it is discovered you used a sample , it still must be cleared. One approach some producers I have encountered take when they sample something where it seems impossible to track down the copyright owner is they create an interest bearing account with what would be an average fee for sample clearence and documnt the attempts. Odds are you will just add to your savings but it's a safer way to go.
|
Jeff Evans
Max Output Level: -24 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5139
- Joined: 2009/04/13 18:20:16
- Location: Ballarat, Australia
- Status: offline
Re: Law on sampling ?
2013/10/28 21:14:29
(permalink)
Thanks dubdisciple I think the idea of setting up an account is an interesting one. I mean in terms of sampling all those multis I have there is just going to be no way of ever getting a hold of those people. Some maybe but many not. I can see where you and AT are coming from in terms of using very recognisable sample or snippets of sound but in reality I don't do it anyway. Of course if I had to I would be chasing them down anyway. I had to write production library music for EMI here in Australia featuring Aboriginal vocals and contemporary music. (mid 90's) I found an amazing LP of Aboriginal singing, mainly in large groups but there were lots of solo areas. I sampled all the solo lines and used them in the production library music. But you have to clear samples for EMI before you can use them in production music though. I tracked down the person who recorded it all in the 50's. Her name was Alice Moyle and she lived in Canberra where I was at the time. http://www.aiatsis.gov.au...bitions/alice/bio.html There is a lot of Aboriginal heritage stuff in Canberra and nowhere else. She was 85 when I met her (deceased now) and I played her the tracks and she loved them. She granted permission because she said they were all dead now and they were singing about food and fruit in the area. I am lucky because using Aboriginal vocal lines is one of the hardest things you can get your hands on and use. Especially now because they are very very protective of such things. But I have a whole library of them and they are all mine to use which is amazing. (haven't used them since though)
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
|
dubdisciple
Max Output Level: -17 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5849
- Joined: 2008/01/29 00:31:46
- Location: Seattle, Wa
- Status: offline
Re: Law on sampling ?
2013/10/29 11:53:03
(permalink)
Thanks for posting that link. would love to hear a track you used these sounds on. I tend to err on the side of over-caution when it comes to copyright issues. The courts have changed dramatically over the years in regards to copyright and not just against rap producers but various forms of media. Becoming a software dominated world has set precedences that make just about everything physical or abstract protected property. If you look at old documentaries in places like NYC they generally just showed everything without needing permission. Now everyone is afraid of showing logos that are caught even incidentally or music that just happens to be in the background. I warn my son all the time that he should rely on sampling as little as possible, even for the tracks he creates for fun since one never knows when that for fun project might get used for something beyond original intent. I also was responsible for teaching copyright information to newbies at a tv station once and still have that zero tolerance or we can get the crap sued out of us mentality when advising others. With that said, there are several high profile acts that seem to be getting away with sampling whoever. Burial, a big star in the UK but mostly unknown in the US has sampled artists as high profile as Beyonce. Underground music artists tend to get away with a lot . EDM is full of uncleared samples. Some are mangled beyond recognition (you would never know in a million years that it is a Beyonce sample on "untrue" odds of getting caught get reduced.") or so underground that
|