cksh.simon
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How to make cello cut through the mix (the rest of orchestra)
I use EWQLSO and I did some eq work on cello and cello arpegio sounds good and quite distinct by itself.
When it's played along with high violin and the rest of orchestra, it loses its distinct sound and sounds more like background effect.
I need both cello and violins to be heard distinctly.
I'm wondering if the right delay/compression/distortion could help, but I'm not a mixing expert.
Can anyone share some insight?
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Beepster
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Re: How to make cello cut through the mix (the rest of orchestra)
2013/11/02 09:56:44
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EQ. Basically you'll want to find the strongest frequencies in your cello and violin parts (use a frequency analyzer) then go through all your tracks and attenuate (turn down) those frequencies as much as possible wherever you can without making those tracks sound weird (even if they don't sound as good as possible because of this the cello and violin will occupy that space anyway so it won't be that noticeable... check in the context of the mix for the right balance). Then you can use panning and stereo field tricks to isolate things further. Like have the backing orchestra more to the left and right of the stereo field then have the cello and violin more centered.
If you have a few bucks I'd recommend going over to Groove3 and checking out some of the mixing vids... particularly the one called EQ Explained for more details on this kind of thing.
Good luck.
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cksh.simon
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Re: How to make cello cut through the mix (the rest of orchestra)
2013/11/02 10:15:20
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Ah okay:) Thanks a lot for the reply&recommendation.
This is one section of the piece. so if I turn down certain frequencies of other instruments, I have to change that back when this section end. To me that sounds like quite a bit of work. Is it something that all mixing experts do, or is there a better to handle this kind of issues?
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Beepster
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Re: How to make cello cut through the mix (the rest of orchestra)
2013/11/02 10:32:45
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☼ Best Answerby cksh.simon 2013/11/02 13:00:16
cksh.simon
Ah okay:) Thanks a lot for the reply&recommendation.
This is one section of the piece. so if I turn down certain frequencies of other instruments, I have to change that back when this section end. To me that sounds like quite a bit of work. Is it something that all mixing experts do, or is there a better to handle this kind of issues?
Getting frequencies out of the way of other instruments is standard mixing practice. Really any time you mix a song you should look at every track and find the main sound of the instrument and remove everything else. Even if you don't hear much in those outer frequencies they can still interfere with other instruments giving a muddy mix. This is why you use Hi and Low pass filters to cut out everything but the main sound. Try it out and you may not have to do anything special for that spot however you could just use automation. But if you REALLY aren't interested in that as I said using pan to disperse the background across the stereo field then having the solo instruments more centered is quite effective as well.
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Beepster
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Re: How to make cello cut through the mix (the rest of orchestra)
2013/11/02 10:34:34
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Of course you could always just turn up those parts but I'm assuming you have already tried that. ;-)
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Razorwit
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Re: How to make cello cut through the mix (the rest of orchestra)
2013/11/02 10:47:04
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☄ Helpfulby cksh.simon 2013/11/02 13:00:11
Hi cksh.simon
People certainly automate EQ settings to make instruments stand out or fade into the background. It's really common for things like acoustic guitar in songs where in some places the acoustic guitar is prominent and in others it's not. More generally, the way to think about it is in terms of having the cello occupy it's own space. In music production the idea of "space" in an important one and can be handled in a few different ways. Here are some:
1. Frequency - this is what Beepster was talking about. When you remove some frequencies from other instruments you're carving out a space for whatever you'd like to be heard more. Removing overlapping or cluttered sounds makes instruments all have their own area to live in.
2. Depth. This is frequently accomplished with reverb or delay (which are really the same thing anyway...but I digress). Reverb gives the listener the illusion that an instrument is sitting back away from the them. To make an instrument more prominent remove some reverb.
3. Stereo field. This is the right to left axis in the stereo field. If each instrument has it's own place in the stereo field it will make them more intelligible and may require less tweaking to stand out in places where you want them to stand out.
4. Volume. Volume automation is EXTREMELY common in today's music and perhaps the easiest way to skin this cat. For the section where you want the cello to stand out bump up the volume a bit.
5. Time. Many good piano players will delay the melodic notes of a piano piece by just a bit so they don't fall exactly on the chordal, structural parts of the song. It's a really tiny amount so the listener doesn't interpret it as a mistake, but it can really make a difference. If you delay your cello part just a bit for the section you'd like to stand out it can separate it from the rest of the piece. Keep in mind it has to be a small amount or it will sound bad...just a few milliseconds.
These techniques frequently work best when used in combination. For example, if you have a section of music where you want the cello to stand out, try moving it's pan position a bit toward center, bumping it up a half db in volume, and removing just a bit of reverb. This gives the illusion that your cello player has moved toward the center of the stage and taken a few steps forward (if you watch jazz, bluegrass or vocal ensembles perform you can actually see performers do that exact thing).
Good luck
Dean
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Razorwit
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Re: How to make cello cut through the mix (the rest of orchestra)
2013/11/02 13:21:07
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So the whole "best answer" and "helpful" stuff is making me absurdly (and entirely un-seriously) competitive. First the OP marked my response as Best, then he switched it to Helpful and marked Beepsters as best? What? Once again I've been bested by Beepster?!?! Curse you, whimsical fate! Damn you capricious gods! Why must the seas of circumstance toss me madly to and fro, from "Best" to merely "Helpful"??? Further, why must I always be second to Beepster?!?!?!? Can no one else see he's merely a kitten tapping a dog on the nose?!?!? Am I doomed to be forever beaten by adorable pets engaged in antics who have also somehow learned to type and produce music??? (shakes his fist at sky) BEEEEPPPPSSSTTTEEEEEERRRRRR!!!!!!! 
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Anderton
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Re: How to make cello cut through the mix (the rest of orchestra)
2013/11/02 13:37:15
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I think Beepster and Razorwit's responses are excellent, with Beepster's being more specific and Razorwit's being more general.
The concept of cutting frequencies that "step on" other instruments is often overlooked but has wide applicability. When EQing guitar in a singer/songwriter situation, the first thing I do is drop the guitar in the vocal range. The voice becomes way more prominent without having to do anything to the voice itself.
I think the emphasis that both Beepster and Razorwit placed on EQ indicate that it's the first thing to try.
One more tip: When I start a mix, I always start off with all the tracks centered, in mono. That makes it easier to EQ the tracks so they don't step on each other. Once I get a clean, distinct sound for each instrument in the mono mix, creating a stereo field opens up the mix like you wouldn't believe.
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Beepster
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Re: How to make cello cut through the mix (the rest of orchestra)
2013/11/02 13:47:46
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ROFL!1
Let's arm wrestle!!!
;-p
If it makes you feel any better I learned things and stuff from your post.
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Lynn
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Re: How to make cello cut through the mix (the rest of orchestra)
2013/11/02 14:35:55
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These are good suggestions that you're getting. However, one quick fix that may help would be to create separate clips for those instruments in that section. Then you can process the clips separately from the rest of the mix either by EQ or applying light compression to the clips. When the section is over, you don't have to do anything else, and the parts will fall back into place.
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LpMike75
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Re: How to make cello cut through the mix (the rest of orchestra)
2013/11/02 14:43:05
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A professional arranger might cringe at the thought of using frequency attenuation on specific instruments to bring out the 'beauty' of the part for the listener. We know this happens at the mixing stage, but when writing a part, especially orchestral pieces, one should keep the frequency problems in mind while arranging the instruments and parts with each other.
My suggestion is to start with the orchestration, and do everything you can there, before moving on to making it sound better in the mix. Assuming you want the Cello's and Violins in the forefront, make sure the background material is not stepping on the instruments rhythmically and frequency wise, to distract from what you want to hear. Also, use dynamics to your advantage. Obviously, if you want to hear the solo flute over the rest of the orchestra, they can't be playing FFF behind it! lol.
The ear will natural pick up on a line that is separate in frequency and separate in rhythm than the background material.
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wizard71
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Re: How to make cello cut through the mix (the rest of orchestra)
2013/11/02 15:46:59
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Automation. Also the orchestration itself must be considered.
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konradh
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Re: How to make cello cut through the mix (the rest of orchestra)
2013/11/02 16:19:22
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I definitely agree with the advice here of getting other stuff out of the way. One note: I really try to avoid EQ on the orchestral instruments (assuming they come from a good, well-sampled library like VSL, EastWest, etc.) and I get a bit bolder with EQ on the less organic things that are in the way (like Rhodes, electric guitar, etc.).
This last thing probably doesn't apply to you, but don't be afraid to drop something out of the mix. In one mix I just finished, I realized I couldn't get the Rhodes loud enough in the busy mix. After a minute of thought, I realized it wasn't contributing anything and was just duplicating the electric rhythm guitar part—and taking some of the character away from the guitar. The mute button is now on that track.
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Lazyboy
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Re: How to make cello cut through the mix (the rest of orchestra)
2013/11/02 17:46:31
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cksh.simon
I use EWQLSO and I did some eq work on cello and cello arpegio sounds good and quite distinct by itself.
When it's played along with high violin and the rest of orchestra, it loses its distinct sound and sounds more like background effect.
I need both cello and violins to be heard distinctly.
I'm wondering if the right delay/compression/distortion could help, but I'm not a mixing expert.
Can anyone share some insight?
The first sentence of your post indicates your problem. You have possibly scooped your cello. This sounds better by itself, but it will get lost in the mix. There are several excellent posts on this thread. They are all correct. But in your case, all you may need to do is go back to square one with your cello sound, EQ it only while playing it in a mono mix, and see what you get. Everybody in bands that I record want to do "the works" on their track while soloing it. Dynamics processing, EQ, reverb, delay, phasing, flanging... Of course it sounds bigger by itself, but the mix sounds like an LSD Carnival by the lake. It's fine to EQ while soloing to get the feel of your sound, but don't use that setting for your mix. Try my suggestion, then use some or all of the other tips the generous people of this forum gave. With automation, a lot of this stuff goes very quickly when you get used to it. Now you can slowly bring in a little of the EQ you wanted, with the stage position, timing, reverb, etc. giving you a little more wriggle room to go for that sound you heard in your head in the first place.
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cparmerlee
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Re: How to make cello cut through the mix (the rest of orchestra)
2013/11/02 19:20:33
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Anderton
The concept of cutting frequencies that "step on" other instruments is often overlooked but has wide applicability. When EQing guitar in a singer/songwriter situation, the first thing I do is drop the guitar in the vocal range. The voice becomes way more prominent without having to do anything to the voice itself.
I think the emphasis that both Beepster and Razorwit placed on EQ indicate that it's the first thing to try.
This is such a common, yet tedious, thing that there ought to be better tools to do this. Conceptually I understand the idea of clearing out space, but in practice this take a lot of time and patience. I look upon this as being very similar to side-chaining compressions, except that affects only volume, and not a particular part of the spectrum. Somebody ought to invent a tool that would essentially side-chain frequency cuts. Imagine if I could send the cello to a side chain, and then run it into a fancy new equalizer on the bus that has the rest of the orchestra. This hypothetical equalizer would have the job of automatically attenuating the strongest frequencies observed on the side chain, while leaving the rest of the frequencies alone. Is there such a tool? It seems to me this would be a great aid to anybody dealing with this kind of mixing challenge.
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Jean
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Re: How to make cello cut through the mix (the rest of orchestra)
2013/11/02 19:36:20
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I find this a handy plugin for sounds being masked in a mix:
As long as you don't overdo it, or use it just to be able to hear what frequencies are fighting for space and then remove it. It's really easy to use as well.
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Jean
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Re: How to make cello cut through the mix (the rest of orchestra)
2013/11/02 19:41:23
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Sorry, that last post didn't work:
The link to the Wavesfactory Trackspacer 2 plugin is:
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Jean
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Re: How to make cello cut through the mix (the rest of orchestra)
2013/11/02 19:43:55
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Link not showing up?
Plugin is Wavesfactory Trackspacer2 .... just google it.
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cksh.simon
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Re: How to make cello cut through the mix (the rest of orchestra)
2013/11/02 19:50:08
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Haha both were very helpful replies and I thought I could pick more than one reply as the answer.
turns out I can't. so i gave it to the first helpful reply sorry:)
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cparmerlee
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Re: How to make cello cut through the mix (the rest of orchestra)
2013/11/02 22:01:57
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Jean
I find this a handy plugin for sounds being masked in a mix:
As long as you don't overdo it, or use it just to be able to hear what frequencies are fighting for space and then remove it. It's really easy to use as well.
I don't think you can post a link until you hit a magic post count. Here it is. http://www.wavesfactory.com/trackspacer.php That looks EXACTLY like what I was describing. This seems like the easy way to open up space.
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jerrypettit
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Re: How to make cello cut through the mix (the rest of orchestra)
2013/11/03 09:35:58
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DaddyV
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Re: How to make cello cut through the mix (the rest of orchestra)
2013/11/03 09:50:49
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Damn you guys....LOL!!! Another must have plug in! Cha Ching
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Beepster
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Re: How to make cello cut through the mix (the rest of orchestra)
2013/11/03 10:06:28
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Well that's not nearly as much fun. :-/
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cparmerlee
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Re: How to make cello cut through the mix (the rest of orchestra)
2013/11/03 11:24:13
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jerrypettit
+1 for Trackspacer.
Do you use it? Considering just about every mixing tutorial these days begins with the idea of notching out spectrum space for competing instruments, this would seem to be one of the most valuable tools in the engineer's arsenal. Listening to the videos, it seems to do exactly what you would want it to do. Are there any other VSTs out there that do this same trick? I am surprised there isn't more discussion about this class of tool.
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Taurean Mixing
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Re: How to make cello cut through the mix (the rest of orchestra)
2013/11/03 12:52:15
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I think understanding the fundamental aspects of orchestral sound helps here. Within a full orchestra, especially
with 2 or more of the same instrument playing in sections, it is natural to "lose" the distinct tone of a given instrument
in exchange for a bigger, lush, "smeared" sound. That's what gives the orchestral sound its signature character.
Distinction would be derived not from EQ but from writing for solo sections for a particular instrument. Some times
this may also mean a more upfront position for a solo instrument and it playing forte while the rest of the arrangement
is written for softer playing.
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Beepster
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Re: How to make cello cut through the mix (the rest of orchestra)
2013/11/03 13:17:52
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I completely agree with those bringing up composition issues. Seems this track is done though. Perhaps though the piece could be rearranged so the interfering instruments are swapped out for less intrusive ones in terms of cello/violin tones.
Also agree with adjusting the "feel/timing" of those instrument's performance. Let the background orchestra be more rigid providing the tempo of the piece and the solo instruments be more fluid. This might be hard to do with the PRV though but certainly not impossible with good ears and intuition.
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Beepster
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Re: How to make cello cut through the mix (the rest of orchestra)
2013/11/03 13:23:34
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Oh and I don't have one readily available but there are plenty of diagrams of orchestra pits and how they are seated. This can be a useful guide to panning your instruments which will help them cut better. There is a reason orchestras are seated the way they are. This can translate to a mix as well from what I've read. Worth a look. Very interesting stuff.
Then I guess your solo instruments would be centered and turned up and perhaps widened a bit. I'm not experienced in this type of production though. You may want to post down in the Techniques tab for more info. There seem to be quite a few classical guys lurking about.
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Jean
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Re: How to make cello cut through the mix (the rest of orchestra)
2013/11/03 14:51:20
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Hi cparmerlee
I use the trackspacer. It's a very handy little plugin and it's just a matter of using a send to the track you want to duck. I usually start with its default setting then adjust from there. It has the capability to isolate the frequency range you want to affect with a high pass/low pass filter built in. It doesn't give any information about the frequencies it's working on though, but I'm sure that could happen in an update.
But having tried it on various things, it really does work well. It adjusts to frequencies in real time or you can freeze it. Maybe surprisingly, it works well on sparse mixes say, vocal and acoustic guitar. (You'd simply insert a send from the vocal to the guitar buss and Sonar will give the option of sending to the track which contains trackspacer )
Not so good maybe at creating space for a vocal against a whole full on backing track as you may hear the ducking. So you have to be a bit more selective about the instruments sitting in the same frequency range within the mix that you want to duck ... if that made sense!
Definitely worth demoing.
As a plugin, it could work for the OP's predicament ... (in combination with all the suggestions above about arrangement etc.) If the cello is playing arpeggios (original post) it's maybe covering quite a large note range quickly. The trackspacer would adapt to that as it goes along.
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konradh
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Re: How to make cello cut through the mix (the rest of orchestra)
2013/11/03 15:24:15
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One note on the orchestra seating chart: I keep that handy when trying to create a realistic orchestral mix, but I don't personally think the chart always applies to pop music:
• The whole orchestra is seldom present in a pop track.
• The seating chart was planned a long time ago with the goal of presenting an even, balanced sound to the audience in an auditorium and grouping players in a way that is logical for them. Pop records have different goals and usually have more different imaging. For example, in a pop record, you wouldn't want basses off-center and you might want to spread the string section out differently.
Still, the chart is an excellent reference.
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Beepster
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Re: How to make cello cut through the mix (the rest of orchestra)
2013/11/03 15:44:15
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Good input, Konradh. I really haven't dabble in that kind of thing yet but had read about it so thought it might help OP. I will however keep what you said in mind for any future attempts I make. I know you work with synth strings quite a bit more than most of us from your posts.
Any thoughts on how to deal with orchestral rows? Like creating the effect of how far a specific row is away from the listener? I'm assuming delay might be the answer. Cheers.
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