Beepster
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Proper way to recieve MONO channel input from BFD Eco within Sonar? Any Bakers around?
So I think I already have the answer to this but I wanted to double check. Here is the entry in the BFD Eco manual in regards to the "problem" getting things set up... 2. In the synth properties dialog box that appears, you can choose to set up BFD Eco’s additional outputs in the Sonar mixer. Unfortunately, this dialog box does not include an option to create all the required stereo and mono outputs, so it is recommended to choose ‘All Synth Audio Outputs: Stereo’, and afterwards manually change the stereo channels created for BFD Eco’s mono 1-16 outputs to mono channels. If you do not know how to do this, please consult your Sonar documentation or contact Cakewalk support. Basically what happens is if you select All Synth Outputs = Stereo all the kit pieces that should be mono get their own stereo track. If you select All Synth Outputs = Mono you get two tracks for each kit piece. I want all the kit piece channels like Kick, Snare, Hi Hat, etc to be mono and then my Room and Overheads to be stereo. My question is this. Is the manual fix they refer to done by simply clicking the track input menu in Sonar and selecting either BFD Input Mono Left or Right going to give me the full signal in Mono? Or will it only give me half the signal or do something else screwy? If that is not the proper way to fix this what is the proper way? Thanks in advance. I know I have been asking a lot of questions about the relationship between BFD and Sonar but I think this should be the last one (hopefully). I just want to get every nuance of this topic understood because I will be using these concepts in pretty much everything I create in Sonar so it's kind of important. Sorry to be a pain.
post edited by Beepster - 2013/11/05 12:36:42
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Beepster
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Re: Proper way to recieve MONO channel input from BFD Eco within Sonar? Any Bakers around?
2013/11/05 13:22:35
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Just a bump with a bit of extra detail because I'd like to get this issue nailed this afternoon and move on with my remix of this project (I've been fiddling with this BFD performance and how to manage the resulting audio for a week now trying to understand anything and everything I need to know so I don't have to keep asking questions about this matter). While I was waiting I checked out the stereo waves that my multi out BFD set up created (because I just left all the inputs set to stereo which is what the default was when I inserted the synth and why I'm trying to figure this out... I want the mono tracks). The meters are showing that on the traditional stereo inputs (the Overheads and Room channels) there is indeed variations between left and right which is cool and obviously normal. On the channels that SHOULD be mono (eg: the direct outputs for the Kick, Snare, etc) the left and right channels of the meter are display the exact same output which confirms (to my little pea brain anyway) that I am indeed getting a mono output from BFD so that is cool too. So I just want to get these "mono" channels to actually be mono channels. I could perhaps use the Right Click > Convert to Mono option as well but again I'm not sure if this is appropriate and isn't something I'd want to put into my workflow because I am currently working in an odd way (bouncing the tracks instead of just freezing... I am doing this for educational purposes so let's leave it at that for now). The better way obviously is to set things up so I get the Mono channels right at the set up of my project instead of fiddling with it after. So as I said I probably already have the answer (choose BFD Mono Left or Right for the channel input of each kit piece) but just need confirmation that this is appropriate and will not degrade the sound quality. I am trying to a) reduce resource consumption (I'm assuming a stereo track drains more resources than a mono track), b) avoid any weird phasing or mixing confusion and c) just trying to do things properly. So yeah just a bump and some more wacky pontifications on my pondering. Cheers.
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Beepster
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Re: Proper way to recieve MONO channel input from BFD Eco within Sonar? Any Bakers around?
2013/11/05 13:25:50
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Oh and the end result is if my assumption is confirmed I will be resetting all the appropriate track inputs to mono, doing another bounce of everything (to get the same performance across all the new tracks) and deleting the stereo bounce set I did last night. Cheers.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Proper way to recieve MONO channel input from BFD Eco within Sonar? Any Bakers around?
2013/11/05 13:29:07
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☄ Helpfulby Beepster 2013/11/05 13:36:00
I haven't read all 3 of your posts beep, but if it was me, I'd select "All Synth Outputs: Mono" when inserting BFD Then you have 2 jobs to do: - Delete all the duplicates
- Set your Overheads/Room to stereo via Sonar's track interelave
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brundlefly
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Re: Proper way to recieve MONO channel input from BFD Eco within Sonar? Any Bakers around?
2013/11/05 13:29:49
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☄ Helpfulby Beepster 2013/11/05 13:35:54
Beepster Is the manual fix they refer to done by simply clicking the track input menu in Sonar and selecting either BFD Input Mono Left or Right going to give me the full signal in Mono?
Yes. Then save as a track template so you don't have to do it again.
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Beepster
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Re: Proper way to recieve MONO channel input from BFD Eco within Sonar? Any Bakers around?
2013/11/05 13:35:45
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Excellent. Thanks, guys. Two methods at my disposal is better than one. Off to rebounce. Cheers.
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Beepster
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Re: Proper way to recieve MONO channel input from BFD Eco within Sonar? Any Bakers around?
2013/11/05 15:03:37
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Oh donkey doodles. My bounce to audio still created stereo waves after changing the inputs to mono. Urg. I know it will create mono waves if I select the mono option in the bounce dialog but it does it for all tracks selected and I do not want that to apply to the Room and Overhead channels (which I left as stereo inputs). Doing a separate bounce of the tracks I want stereo won't work either because I'm then using two difference performances from BFD and I have anti machine gun mode on (which it needs and I intend to use in the future). Oh well. At least both sides of the new waves seem to be identical. I guess I'll have to hunt down the Split Stereo function and just delete one side... or something. :-/
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Proper way to recieve MONO channel input from BFD Eco within Sonar? Any Bakers around?
2013/11/05 15:30:07
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I remember in the past when bouncing BFD that I would perform 2 separate passes: 1 for the mono tracks and a second for the stereo. Maybe another case for freezing rather than bouncing? The only issue with this is that Sonar will make one pass for each track which might generate phase issues if certain "round robin" samples are triggered differently from pass to pass Does Eco have a separate, internal bounce function? you'd need your Midi in BFD, but I guess it can be dragged in? Not sure about this, it's something I've never tried to be honest
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brundlefly
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Re: Proper way to recieve MONO channel input from BFD Eco within Sonar? Any Bakers around?
2013/11/05 15:30:38
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Another advantage of freezing; you will automatically get stereo or mono tracks as appropriate.
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Beepster
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Re: Proper way to recieve MONO channel input from BFD Eco within Sonar? Any Bakers around?
2013/11/05 15:58:27
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Bristol_Jonesey I remember in the past when bouncing BFD that I would perform 2 separate passes: 1 for the mono tracks and a second for the stereo. Maybe another case for freezing rather than bouncing? The only issue with this is that Sonar will make one pass for each track which might generate phase issues if certain "round robin" samples are triggered differently from pass to pass Does Eco have a separate, internal bounce function? you'd need your Midi in BFD, but I guess it can be dragged in? Not sure about this, it's something I've never tried to be honest
You know this is something that I was wondering in regards to the Freeze vs. Bounce issue but felt like I had already annoyed everyone enough with that topic. If freezing does indeed use a new pass for each track (which would more than likely be the case if freezing one track at a time) then to me that's a no go for drums for the exact reason you mention... phasing between close mic'd and ambient mics and perhaps the risk of slight time variations between freezes. What I WAS thinking though was perhaps if I multi selected the tracks and held Ctrl while engaging the Freeze button perhaps it would use one pass. However the BFD Eco manual specifically states that Fast Bounce should be disabled when bouncing to audio and I'm assuming a Freeze uses a Fast Bounce type approach when creating the way. Not sure if there is a setting to change that but if not then it might cause a problem (although throughout this I did do a couple tests with fast bounce enabled and upon a brief listen I didn't notice anything wacky but I wasn't listening very closely or a/bing to compare) So I guess unless a Baker and/or maybe someone from FXpansion stops by to explain a little further I may have to accept the fact that what I have done today is indeed how I should extract audio tracks from BFD. I'll do further tests and comparisons of the different methods at some point but frankly I'm getting a little sick of messing around with this aspect of this specific project. I don't regret spending the last week or so putting myself through the wringer poking into every aspect of this process (though I do feel a little bad for harassing you guys about it so much... lol, sorry) because I know WAY more now than when I started but it's time to move on to the remix. I guess the deal is at this point in my "education" I'd rather not just find a way to do something... I want to understand the why's, how's and particulars of everything I attempt. That way if I get stuck I'll be better equipped to find workarounds or if there is a problem I'll have a better chance of fixing it or avoiding it in the first place. Seriously if Funkybot hadn't brought up the potential phase issues of doing separate bounces I probably would never had considered them until I screwed up a ton of projects. Thanks again guys. Now I guess I have to make a choice between using Convert to Mono or trying to split the stereo track and deleting one side (and I can't remember where the Split function is... or if it even exists). The hilarious part is it probably doesn't even matter if I leave the waves as stereo but it just bugs me to look at those two separate waves... mocking me... WHY MUST THEY MOCK ME??!!! ;-p
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Proper way to recieve MONO channel input from BFD Eco within Sonar? Any Bakers around?
2013/11/05 16:24:11
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You can right click any clip in the track pane and choose "Convert to Mono", so that easily resolved. If you decide to freeze the synth, you can choose whether or not it's frozen using a fast bounce or a real time bounce. Just right click the synth icon on the Midi track and choose "Freeze Options"
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Beepster
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Re: Proper way to recieve MONO channel input from BFD Eco within Sonar? Any Bakers around?
2013/11/05 16:34:13
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Bristol_Jonesey You can right click any clip in the track pane and choose "Convert to Mono", so that easily resolved. If you decide to freeze the synth, you can choose whether or not it's frozen using a fast bounce or a real time bounce. Just right click the synth icon on the Midi track and choose "Freeze Options"
Ah, cool. So Freeze may still be on the table if the Multi Select > Freeze idea works. The other potential solution would be to disengage anti machine gun mode but then that requires more attention to the note velocities of the MIDI track and perhaps still result in variations between tracks (but maybe not and I'm just paranoid). Thanks again Jonesey (and brundlefly).
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Proper way to recieve MONO channel input from BFD Eco within Sonar? Any Bakers around?
2013/11/05 17:40:58
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I'm still trying to get BFD to run it's own export. No luck yet but I'l try and get it working and report back
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Beepster
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Re: Proper way to recieve MONO channel input from BFD Eco within Sonar? Any Bakers around?
2013/11/05 18:06:24
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I'm not sure if Eco has some of the fancier export options. I read to whole manual the other day and nothing really stood out. The only thing I've been able to get it to do (and this was ages ago) was export a stereo wave from the standalone of some grooves slap together on that ridonculous internal timeline thingie. There was a brief mention of being able to export MIDI grooves but this is a MIDI track I played/wrote within Sonar. Unless I can somehow import it into BFD then export it again... but that sounds like a pain and I'm not sure exactly how it would help this situation. What we got going here in this thread should be fine. It's just a limitation/quirk with Sonar that can be worked around. I checked the waves and they sound fine. Actually I almost think they sound better than the synth playback. Like they're clearer or something. More realistic. Tomorrow I'm going to export the toms one at a time as helper tracks. I ran out of output channels so I figured the toms being bounced from different passes wouldn't conflict with the OHs/Room tracks as much as doing the cymbals on different passes. Also because I made sure to get the pan and levels right for the grouped tom output I did today that will be dominant in the mix and the extra tom tracks will just be there to beef things up if I need. This sure has been a lot of brain work. Confusing stuff this routing business. The full BFD would make this a lot easier with the extra outputs but there ain't no cash for that right now. Edit: You know I just realized to the casual observer who hasn't been watching my escapades with this I may have made it sound like a) using BFD is ultra complex (it is kind of but not THAT bad) and/or b) I'm a total bafoon (which is debatable I guess.. lol). Really the reason this has been such an ordeal is because of what I'm trying to do. There are obviously many other simpler ways to get a drum track (which I've already done successfully many times) but I'm trying to replicate the exact type of track set up one would get recording a live kit in the studio. I may type up the entire procedure I followed and the reasons why I did specific things (torturing myself in the process). Some may find it useful or at least interesting. Really though this has been quite arduous and I know I certainly could have benefited from a step by step guide. Cheers and thanks to everyone who helped me figure this out.
post edited by Beepster - 2013/11/05 18:34:56
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Funkybot
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Re: Proper way to recieve MONO channel input from BFD Eco within Sonar? Any Bakers around?
2013/11/05 18:51:02
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Bristol_Jonesey I haven't read all 3 of your posts beep, but if it was me, I'd select "All Synth Outputs: Mono" when inserting BFD Then you have 2 jobs to do:
- Delete all the duplicates
- Set your Overheads/Room to stereo via Sonar's track interelave
I would probably do a manual setup, then save it as a track template, so I'd: 1. Select Insert Synth and use the "First Output" option 2. In BFD Eco's mixer, route the Kick to the Kick output, Snare to the Snare output, etc., so all channels are on a unique output* 3. In Sonar, with the In/Out option module turned on in the console, I'm going to reassign track 1 the "Kick (left)" output option (name your track in Sonar as you go along) Why "Kick (Left)"? Because ECO actually gives you two mono outputs for each drum and a stereo output for that drum. The two mono outputs are just duplicates of the same track, and there's no need for stereo on the direct channels because they're mono. 4. Then I'm going to insert another track and select the "Snare (left)" option 5. Repeat this for the direct channels on all kit pieces using the "(left)" output option 6. Once all your mono outputs are set, insert a new track and select the "OH (stereo)" option 7. Then insert and add "Room (stereo)" as the output option, assign any aux busses the same way While it's a bit slower, I find the manual approach ends up being cleaner as it gets me only the channels I use, and in the order I want them in. I'm also not ending up with a bunch of unused tracks I need to go in and delete after working backwards to figure out what's assigned to what. Assigning outputs to multi-out VSTi's is another area where I really feel like Sonar can improve. In another host I use, you insert an instrument, it creates one track, in the plugin menu there's a "Channel" button, you click on that and it opens up a list of all available outputs. You check the box next to each output you want, and they're created for you on demand. It's a lot slicker than Sonar's implementation IMO. *Note for BFD3 users: you can right click any channel in the mixer and use the Auto-Assign Outputs option to do this for you. It's a huge time saver.
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