leebut
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Is USB 1.1 and 16-bit too old hat?
Dear all,
I'm thinking of buying an Allen & Heath Zed10, but when I spoke to their tech guy he said it was 16-bit, up to 48k, and USB 1.1.
Yikes! USB 1.1 is ancient! This mixer is not an old product.
Is that spec too slow for SonarX3? 48k is enough, but the 16-bit and USB 1.1 worries me somewhat. Shame really, because the Zed10 has good features.
I would only be using it for voice-over work, and maybe guitar as well.
Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.
All the best,
Lee.
Sonar X3; Sonar X2a Essential; Music Creator 6 Windows 7 Professional (64-bit) ASUS M5A97 EVO R2; 8Gb DDR3 1866 Vengeance RAM; AMD FX 6300 CPU MOTU Microbook II
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Leadfoot
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Re: Is USB 1.1 and 16-bit too old hat?
2013/11/16 07:48:45
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I think I would pass. The 16bit part is what I don't like. Just my opinion. :)
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leebut
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Re: Is USB 1.1 and 16-bit too old hat?
2013/11/16 08:03:56
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Thanks, Leadfoot. Yeah. With you on the 16-bit. I could use it for it's preamps and run a line out to my interface.
The search goes on.
Sonar X3; Sonar X2a Essential; Music Creator 6 Windows 7 Professional (64-bit) ASUS M5A97 EVO R2; 8Gb DDR3 1866 Vengeance RAM; AMD FX 6300 CPU MOTU Microbook II
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bitflipper
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Re: Is USB 1.1 and 16-bit too old hat?
2013/11/16 10:25:08
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☄ Helpfulby Mitch_I 2013/11/17 12:26:30
It should work just fine for voice-over work. Don't worry about the USB 1.1 spec, it's perfectly adequate for one or two tracks recording simultaneously. I wouldn't worry about it being 16-bit, either. Your audio will be 32 bits once it's in the DAW, which is where bit depth matters.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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leebut
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Re: Is USB 1.1 and 16-bit too old hat?
2013/11/16 12:15:40
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Hi Bitflipper,
That's interesting. How does that work? I always thought the input bit depth was the important factor that governed everything else. Won't Sonar only allow me to set the driver bit depth to 16 to comply with the device? Maybe there is a setting I've missed.
Thanks,
Lee.
Sonar X3; Sonar X2a Essential; Music Creator 6 Windows 7 Professional (64-bit) ASUS M5A97 EVO R2; 8Gb DDR3 1866 Vengeance RAM; AMD FX 6300 CPU MOTU Microbook II
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drewfx1
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Re: Is USB 1.1 and 16-bit too old hat?
2013/11/16 12:31:44
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Sonar processes everything internally at higher bit depths.
On the input side, you only need enough bits so that you can adjust the levels so that you don't clip (!) while still keeping the converter's noise floor several dB below the noise level you are feeding into it (such as analog circuit noise and room noise).
On the output side, assuming you are using dither you only need enough bits so that the quantization noise + dither is inaudible at reasonable listening levels.
 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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Jeff Evans
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Re: Is USB 1.1 and 16-bit too old hat?
2013/11/16 16:14:46
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I don't necessarily agree with the concept that 16 bit is OK going in. Firstly it is a myth that you should be be recording as high level as you can. One should be recording at a much lower level than right up near 0 dB FS. This is where 24 bit recording comes into its own. You can record at a level of say -20 dB FS (rms wise) with ease and it sounds much better. Depends on the quality of what you are trying to do. If you were say tracking a string quartet and the music got very quiet at times 24 bit would be the only way to go. Today it is considered to be the minimum standard.
16 bit is not good enough these days IMO. You would be better off at least in investing in an interface that can handle 24 bit recording on the way in. It will serve you much better in the long run.
Yes once it is in your DAW things are often handled at higher resolutions but even so the quality of what you are dealing with is still limited to the 16 bit A to D going in and in some cases it could act as a bottleneck. Sure if it is a lot of slammin distorted guitars then you may not hear the difference but if it is a really nice acoustic ensemble (recording at a much lower level) then it will become much more obvious.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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leebut
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Re: Is USB 1.1 and 16-bit too old hat?
2013/11/16 18:19:55
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Thanks for your input Jeff.
I realise the A&H ZED10 is cheap compared to other things they make. Nevertheless, my Lexicon alpha outputs 24-bit. Had the ZED10 been released 10 years ago, their output specs may have been top of the line. I can't work out why they would release a relatively new product with USB 1.1 and 16-bit output.
At the moment I have an ART Tube MP Studio V3 > to compressor > to Lexicon alpha > to PC. Problem is the ART is a bit hissy, so want to step up from that, but not need a loan to do so.
What I'm after is a small desk so I can send my condenser mic feed to my compressor (unarmed for recording) > return to the desk (armed for recording) > out to DAW (Or out to Lexicon Alpha). If I send to the Lexicon, I can get away with using the desk for good preamps, but not the USB, but I think the fewer patch leads the better. I have looked at Behringer USB desks, but the opinions out their indicate that their products are not always up to par. I just think a desk would give me more control over what I'm putting into the DAW as opposed to an interface with preamps built in, that will mean I can't use my compressor. I could be wrong, though.
Mackie Onyx 820i costs too much for me at the moment.
Anyway. Thanks again folks.
All the best,
Lee.
Sonar X3; Sonar X2a Essential; Music Creator 6 Windows 7 Professional (64-bit) ASUS M5A97 EVO R2; 8Gb DDR3 1866 Vengeance RAM; AMD FX 6300 CPU MOTU Microbook II
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bitflipper
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Re: Is USB 1.1 and 16-bit too old hat?
2013/11/17 15:10:07
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Jeff Evans
16 bit is not good enough these days IMO.
Everyone's entitled to an Opinion, especially when the IMO comes from someone as knowledgeable as Mr. Evans. But technical matters needn't nor shouldn't be a matter of opinion. On input, bit depth affects dynamic range and nothing else. 96 decibels isn't good enough for voiceovers? C'mon, Jeff, you know better than that.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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Jeff Evans
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Re: Is USB 1.1 and 16-bit too old hat?
2013/11/17 15:29:07
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Apologies Dave I did not see the Voice over mention in the OP. So yes 16 bit would be fine for that for sure. In fact when I do voice overs myself I set the bit depth to 16 bit anyway. It results in a smaller file and also the output is in 16 bit ready for the user to import usually easily and faster etc without and conversions involved.
As long as the incoming recording level is reasonably high. eg I have my system calibrated for K-14 dB rms and just peak the VU meter to 0 dB on the VU while doing voice overs. In fact the VU meter really responds well to voice as that was its original intention. I ususlly edit at that level and after I have edited out all the mistakes etc I might then limit all peaks to around -4 dB and add a further 3 dB of gain before sending it out. Then you have a nice loud VO that is very even and sounds great. And this can all be done in 16 bit too without issue.
I did mention in my post however with musical applications such as low level recording that 24 bit is better and that still stands. Sorry for the confusion.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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Cactus Music
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Re: Is USB 1.1 and 16-bit too old hat?
2013/11/17 22:00:21
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I think the reason A&H gives you those seemingly inadequate specs is they are trying to deliver a product that has as low a price point possible to compete with a certain market. The USB port was expected to be used for board mixes which will end up as MP3 so the specs are simply "good enough for us" kind of idea. They don't really even pretend to call it an Audio Interface. quote from the web page- "ZED60-10FX comes with configurable USB audio in/out, making it easy to capture a stereo recording at the gig or in the studio." I was shopping for a new small footprint mixer last winter and took a close look at the Zed 10 fxs. I also looked at Mackie,Yamaha and Soundcraft offerings. I determined that the USB port was of little use to me. I posted a question on another forum because the drivers are not even listed on the A&H web site. I was correct, they are generic and Sonar will hate them. So don't buy a A&H thinking it's an audio interface, It's a great little mixer. The USB will work to playback from your laptop , but it will not be any much different than using the headphone jack so no point in it. I wrote a review- http://www.gearslutz.com/board/reviews/843873-yamaha-mg82cx.html
post edited by Cactus Music - 2013/11/18 02:39:35
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Kev999
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Re: Is USB 1.1 and 16-bit too old hat?
2013/11/19 00:49:10
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16-bit is far more of a limiting factor than USB 1.1.
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leebut
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Re: Is USB 1.1 and 16-bit too old hat?
2013/12/02 04:17:57
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Thank you for the replies, everyone. I appreciate them all.
I want to my local store, and after discussion they recommended the MOTU Microbook II. It is flexible enough for what I need.
All the best,
Lee.
Sonar X3; Sonar X2a Essential; Music Creator 6 Windows 7 Professional (64-bit) ASUS M5A97 EVO R2; 8Gb DDR3 1866 Vengeance RAM; AMD FX 6300 CPU MOTU Microbook II
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