Helpful ReplyMono efects permanently make a track mono?

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ZeroContrast
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2013/11/20 06:06:25 (permalink)

Mono efects permanently make a track mono?

Because I record rap music, most of the tracks I'm recording live are mono, so I set up a track template with several tracks with my commonly used FX on each (Waves Mercury EQ, compressor, & limiter). I used the mono versions of these FX (when there is one). But now I just realized, if I start with this template, and add a stereo file to that track (such as a full beat for a mixtape song, or individual instrument tracks of original beats) the track that the file is on will continue playing mono even if I remove all FX from the track. Most cases I can fix this easily by inserting new audio tracks and cutting and pasting, but in some cases fixing it can be problematic and the easiest way would be to switch the track back to stereo playback.

Does anyone know what causes this and/or how to fix it?
#1
Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Mono efects permanently make a track mono? 2013/11/20 06:18:40 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby ZeroContrast 2013/11/20 06:51:53
Set the track interleave to Stereo?

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mettelus
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Re: Mono efects permanently make a track mono? 2013/11/20 06:26:01 (permalink)
Quick question. Are you saying that you cannot set the input on a track with mono FX to stereo? Which "mono FX" are you using (the reason I ask this is I only think of FX as audio or MIDI, not "mono" vs "stereo")?
 
If you have stereo inputs assigned, a track should record in stereo for you (if you view "All" versus the default "Custom" at the top of the track view, you can expand tracks to see inputs, outputs, etc.).
 
Additionally, if already recorded, you can right click on a mono clip and "convert to stereo" rather than cutting/pasting it anywhere.

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ZeroContrast
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Re: Mono efects permanently make a track mono? 2013/11/20 06:59:34 (permalink)
@Bristol_Jonesey, you are a godsend, thank you. Had to research interleave, but that was the trick. Solved.
 
@mettelius, thanks for the reply, couldn't quite follow you, but yes, some effects do have a stereo version and a mono version (the Waves Mercury collection has a lot that are like this).
 
I usually use the mono versions on mono audio because I assume they may be lighter on RAM and I've occasionally had funny business with things being a bit touchy when mixing through my interface and a mono track gets bounced to either L or R if the FX are stereo.
 
Apparently when you assign a mono effect, it sets the interweave to mono, and processes everything down a single mono channel. Which is biz as usual IF it's a mono track, but obviously obnoxious if it's stereo.
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sharke
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Re: Mono efects permanently make a track mono? 2013/11/20 09:54:57 (permalink)
Sonar only sets the interweave to mono for you if the first effect in the chain is mono. The only thing is, it doesn't update the interweave button (bug). However, if you then flip the switch to mono, it won't let you change it back to stereo as long as that first effect in the chain is mono.

If you insert a mono effect after a stereo effect on a stereo track, the signal is summed on two channels. However only one channel is processed by the mono effect, so you could get phase problems as Plugin Delay Compensation is only applied to the processed channel. So if you're going to mix mono and stereo effects, it's best to keep the mono effect on a mono track and send the output to a stereo bus with the stereo effect on it.

I think I got that right :)

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bitflipper
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Re: Mono efects permanently make a track mono? 2013/11/20 10:21:39 (permalink)
It gets worse. Create a stereo track with stereo data but insert a mono effect and it becomes a mono track, regardless of how the interleave option is set. Create a mono track with mono data but insert a stereo effect and it becomes a stereo track, but with the sound skewed to one side until you switch the interleave. Or really screw things up by using a mix of mono and stereo effects, then post here asking why panning is broken in SONAR.
 
Best to avoid those complications when possible, by keeping mono mono and stereo stereo all the way through from input to mix bus. If you must use a stereo effect on a mono track, set the interleave to stereo even though the data is monophonic.


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mettelus
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Re: Mono efects permanently make a track mono? 2013/11/20 10:32:33 (permalink)
This thread has been quite the eye-opener for me. I think I have inadvertently triggered these comments in the past but didn't understand the signal flow enough to realize what was happening.

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lawp
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Re: Mono efects permanently make a track mono? 2013/11/20 10:44:02 (permalink)
talking of signal flow, someone on the s***** o** forum made some charts:
 

from: http://forums.presonus.com/posts/list/25568.page
these are really useful not just for general understanding of signal flow & gain staging etc, but especially for the given daw...
does anyone know if there's an equivalent for sonar?
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scook
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Re: Mono efects permanently make a track mono? 2013/11/20 10:47:15 (permalink)
There is a signal flow diagram in the documentation
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mettelus
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Re: Mono efects permanently make a track mono? 2013/11/20 10:48:35 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby TheSteven 2013/11/20 15:51:03

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lawp
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Re: Mono efects permanently make a track mono? 2013/11/20 10:53:37 (permalink)
thanks, exactly what i was looking for :)
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drummaman
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Re: Mono efects permanently make a track mono? 2013/11/20 11:25:45 (permalink)
Thanks for the information - VERY good info, indeed!

This may be the reason X3c is having a hard time playing a particular X2a project... (lost volume, right panning gone, etc.)

I disabled the FX plugins on the track, but that may not do anything, as the plugins are still there.

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Paul P
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Re: Mono efects permanently make a track mono? 2013/11/20 11:48:32 (permalink)
scook
There is a signal flow diagram in the documentation




I'm not sure that diagram is completely accurate.  For example, it doesn't show prochannel on busses.
 

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Re: Mono efects permanently make a track mono? 2013/11/20 11:53:53 (permalink)
Now that I have looked at the signal path, I am confused by the "switch" junctions on the ProChannel... do these imply switches (either/or), or parallel paths? And which FX bin is next to the ProChannel? The Track FX bin?
 
I actually would like more detail on that flow chart.

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John
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Re: Mono efects permanently make a track mono? 2013/11/20 11:59:38 (permalink)
Yes  it is a switch and all it means is the PC can be pre FX bin or post.

Best
John
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Paul P
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Re: Mono efects permanently make a track mono? 2013/11/20 12:11:41 (permalink)
John
Yes  it is a switch and all it means is the PC can be pre FX bin or post.




Well, then the diagram should be updated.  At first I thought it was saying that the PC was in parallel, then figured that didn't make sense so it had to be either/or (as mettelus points out).
 

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scook
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Re: Mono efects permanently make a track mono? 2013/11/20 13:11:52 (permalink)
Paul P
 
Well, then the diagram should be updated.  At first I thought it was saying that the PC was in parallel, then figured that didn't make sense so it had to be either/or (as mettelus points out).
 


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lawp
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Re: Mono efects permanently make a track mono? 2013/11/20 14:12:39 (permalink)
yes that was the reason given for having online help, easier to keep updated - is it being updated with each patch?
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scook
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Re: Mono efects permanently make a track mono? 2013/11/20 14:17:27 (permalink)
Yes PC based version gets updated. The web based version gets corrections/changes between updates.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Mono efects permanently make a track mono? 2013/11/20 15:15:54 (permalink)


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lawp
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Re: Mono efects permanently make a track mono? 2013/11/20 15:38:38 (permalink)
the input area in the diagram could do with fleshing out a bit http://i764.photobucket.c...alFlow_zps624ec1e0.jpg
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TheSteven
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Re: Mono efects permanently make a track mono? 2013/11/20 15:56:14 (permalink)
John
Yes  it is a switch and all it means is the PC can be pre FX bin or post.




Where is that friggin switch in X3?
Maybe I just need more caffeine but I'm just not finding it. 
 
 

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John
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Re: Mono efects permanently make a track mono? 2013/11/20 15:59:02 (permalink)
Right click the PC. 

Best
John
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TheSteven
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Re: Mono efects permanently make a track mono? 2013/11/20 16:02:27 (permalink)
Ahh, I see it.
Its on the Track View not the ProChannel view module view.

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scook
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Re: Mono efects permanently make a track mono? 2013/11/20 16:02:49 (permalink)
There is a Post/Pre button in the ProChannel section of the Track Inspector and Console view. There is also an option in the popup menu in the ProChannel tab of the inspector
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TheSteven
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Re: Mono efects permanently make a track mono? 2013/11/20 16:10:17 (permalink)
scook
There is a Post/Pre button in the ProChannel section of the Track Inspector and Console view. There is also an option in the popup menu in the ProChannel tab of the inspector




Thanks everyone!
 
Here's an image for anyone else looking for it


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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Mono efects permanently make a track mono? 2013/11/20 16:11:36 (permalink)
ignore this 

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