silvercn
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Mid-side question on the mid mic
For doing M/S on acoustic guitar is it really essential that the mid mic be small diaphragm for the best outcome - or can it be large -D - perhaps for a certain sound that might even be better -I don't know. Of course I could just go and try it - but wanted to get some opinions going... thanks !
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Mid-side question on the mid mic
2013/11/24 08:26:32
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I think generalizations about LDC and SDC are inspired by specific mics that have been historically popular and were widely used. If you consider the wide scope of choices available today in the LDC and SDC format it seems difficult to substantiate a generalized preference for LDC or SDC as a form factor. You'll learn more by just trying what you have available. best regards, mike edit grammar
post edited by mike_mccue - 2013/11/24 09:20:34
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quantumeffect
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Re: Mid-side question on the mid mic
2013/11/24 08:45:52
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... what Mike said.
Just make sure the mid mic is switched to cardioid.
I've done quite a bit of experimenting with mic combinations in front of a drum set and had good results using a 414 as mid switched to cardioid.
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bitflipper
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Re: Mid-side question on the mid mic
2013/11/24 11:38:32
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It shouldn't make any difference as far as M/S goes whether you use a small or large diaphragm. The convention of using SDCs is for two reasons. First, its smaller size may make it easier to get the two diaphragms closer together. Second, M/S is most-often used for acoustic guitars, and the small diaphragm is better for capturing the high-frequency subtleties of an acoustic guitar.
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wst3
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Re: Mid-side question on the mid mic
2013/11/24 15:22:12
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I've used both SDC and LDC microphones in M/S arrays. It really has more to do - I think - with the specific microphone and application.
I'd also point out that while convention suggests a cardiod pattern for the mid microphone, and in fact the math works better that way too, don't be afraid to try an omni as the mid microphone. It's a very different sound, but sometimes it works well.
You can also substitute a bi-directional microphone as the mid, but then it is (I believe) more properly referred to as Blumlein...
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Mid-side question on the mid mic
2013/11/25 06:37:50
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A Blumlein pair is normally set up as two figure of 8's configured so that they are positioned 90° from each other.
*Wiki... "the microphone capsules are placed as close to each other as physically possible, generally with one centered directly above the other. The array is oriented so that the line bisecting the angle between the two microphones points towards the sound source to be recorded (see diagram). The pickup patterns of the pair, combined with their positioning, delivers a high degree of stereo separation in the source signal as well as the room ambiance."
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Mid-side question on the mid mic
2013/11/25 07:51:12
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Blumlein predicted the useful possibilities of coincident mic placement in a more ways than just the specific +45°/-45° fig8 technique that his name became associated with posthumously. Also from WIKI: "Mid-Side StereoThis coincident technique employs a bidirectional microphone (with a Figure of 8 polar pattern) facing sideways and a cardioid (generally a variety of cardioid, although Alan Blumlein described the usage of an omnidirectional transducer in his original patent) at an angle of 90° facing the sound source. One mike is physically inverted over the other, so they share the same distance. The left and right channels are produced through a simple matrix: Left = Mid + Side, Right = Mid − Side (the polarity-reversed side-signal). This configuration produces a completely mono-compatible signal and, if the Mid and Side signals are recorded (rather than the matrixed Left and Right), the stereo width can be manipulated after the recording has taken place. This makes it especially useful for film-based projects." With regards to generalizing that SDC are more effective at, or sensitive to, capturing high frequencies: That idea is based on the idea that the small diaphragms have a different range of resonance than large diaphragms and this is, more or less, true when you compare like to like examples of capsules that are made to a standard of very high quality construction. When you compare a high quality capsule to a discount commodity grade capsule you may find that any generalizations used to form an assumption will be a distraction to understanding the actual circumstance you have at hand. Trivia: SDCs do often times have a much more natural sounding off axis response. Indeed my Schopes MK41 cardiods don't seem all that special compared to many other choices until you listen deeply and start to notice that sound sourced from off axis is noticeably reduced in level while sounding very familiar and "natural". It's not something you think about much until you go back to a mic that doesn't do that as well and then you may realize that the character of off axis response has a substantial impact on one's impression of the overall sound. It is still not a characteristic that should be generalized as SDC vs LDC but it does seem to be the case that no top of the line LDC does it as well as some top of the line SDCs. all the best, mike edit spelling
post edited by mike_mccue - 2013/11/25 12:25:53
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Jeff Evans
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Re: Mid-side question on the mid mic
2013/11/25 08:14:58
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silvercn what mics do you have available or were thinking of using. None of the above info is relevent (interesting though) unless you have the mics available. Might be good to know what you actually are intending to use.
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silvercn
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Re: Mid-side question on the mid mic
2013/11/25 11:03:43
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Jeff - thanks: I have these: Figure 8: MXL R144; LD-ADK S-51 and Berhinger C-1; and SD-MXL-991. Certainly not high end, but these are the ones I am going to be using.
I have also learned (unless not doing it right) that if I try to send each of the side channels to a reverb bus, they cancel each other out when they arrive there.
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wst3
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Re: Mid-side question on the mid mic
2013/11/25 12:06:02
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hate to dissent... but one needs to use whatever one has on hand to learn, experiment, discover, etc. While it would certainly be nice to have a locker with lots of high end microphones of every variety, most of us don't have that luxury. So experiment. Do things wrong.
Speaking of which, you've already run into one lesson - the side channels are of opposite polarity (contrary to popular belief, they are not technically "out of phase"<G>) - so when you sum them together you will get quite a bit of cancellation. It won't be perfect of course, but it will be quite impressive... just not in a good way.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Mid-side question on the mid mic
2013/11/25 12:24:18
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I don't see any ideas in this thread that should warrant the acknowledgement of a dissenting position. :-)
For example the last sentence in post number 2 offers the opinion:
"...You'll learn more by just trying what you have available."
and that idea seems to be the general consensus. :-)
all the best!
mike
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Jeff Evans
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Re: Mid-side question on the mid mic
2013/11/25 14:39:44
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☼ Best Answerby silvercn 2013/11/25 16:41:52
Ok all those microphones are good for what you want to do and they all seem like pretty good value for money as well.
Some practical tips:
I would obviously use the MXLR144 for the side Mic. It is just a simple matter of setting up an M/S setup with this as the Side Mic and create two setups. One with the Behringer C1 as the M Mic and the second obviously with the MXL 991 as the M Mic.
Make recordings with both setups at various distances and positions on the acoustic guitar. Make sure you set both setups at exactly the same position. You could in fact set up the S Mic (horizontally) and both the M Mics at the same time one above the S Mic and the other below it. The S Mic should still sound the same either vertically or horizontally. Record to 3 tracks at the same time. Move the whole assembly around into various positions. Announce what position the setup is in. eg how far away it is and where it is.
On playback decode the S Mic with either of the M Mics. You should be able to setup this decoding by routing things around. Use a plugin to do the decoding, it is easier. Then you should be able to directly A/B the different M Mics (in real time) and see which you prefer.
With the Mics you have you wont be able to make Blumlein setup. Both of those M Mics are cardioid only.
I have recorded acoustic guitar with both LDC and SDC as the M Mic and both gave very nice results. It is just a matter of taste which you prefer. No amount of discussion will replace going through this process and finding out what sounds best to you.
Having a second Mic that has various patterns does open up many possibilites. You can then put it into figure 8 mode and make a Blumlein recording. Or put it into Onmi and use it as the M Mic in an M/S setup. With Blumlein you must remember it is picking up as much on the other side as it is the source side so you need to be very aware of the room acoustics on the other side of the Blumlein setup. (not always ideal in a small home studio) I made a very nice M/S recording of a string quartet using the M Mic in Omni. (room was really nice though) BTW M/S recording makes string quartet stuff very easy and it is almost the best way to do it. eg put the string quartet in an 180 degree arc and put the M/S set up in the middle of it facing the quartet. It means you have got Mics pointing at all the instruments at once, very cool. And you can either bring the image in or further out.
While I agree with Mike in that even a relatively mono source sound such as an acoustic guitar can sound good in stereo it still depends on the final mix. I have found from experience that in a dense complex mix recording the acoustic guitar in stereo is not so good or you just don't hear it really with everything else going on. However for a solo recording in a nice space it could be very good indeed.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Mid-side question on the mid mic
2013/11/25 15:39:25
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I disagree with the idea that I have stated a preference for stereo vs mono. :-) I agree with the idea that each can be effective in differing circumstances. :-)
I'd also like to reiterate the idea that Mr. Blumlein's patent described the use of an omni mid for MS prior to his description of the idea of using figure 8s in the popular +45/-45 orientation. In other words, MS coincident positioning is a variety of Blumlein technique.
Sent from DROID.
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silvercn
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Re: Mid-side question on the mid mic
2013/11/25 16:43:35
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Jeff - good idea for me to set up all three at once and then compare...and note the distances from the guitar. Like it - will get on it and if I remember - write back.
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The Band19 
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Re: Mid-side question on the mid mic
2013/11/28 17:48:05
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I use an Mojave Audio MA-100 (they make the MA-200 now I think?) for the mid and it works really well (recommended) It's a small diaphram.
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clk4suport
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Re: Mid-side question on the mid mic
2013/12/02 05:08:22
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