Slap bass Struggles

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gswitz
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2013/12/21 15:24:23 (permalink)

Slap bass Struggles

Here is a picture of the wave form...
http://stabilitynetwork.blob.core.windows.net/g-tunes/Screenshot%20(22).png

 
Solo'd it sounds like this...
http://stabilitynetwork.blob.core.windows.net/g-tunes/Slap.mp3
 
Frankly it sounds like clipping to my ear. I keep running it down to this track, wondering if the drummer hit a mic or something, but it's always the bassist.
 
The spectrum impacted by the slap spike is really large, so it's hard to just trim it out with EQ.
 
I've tried the Waves RBass plugs. Unfortunately, the slaps aren't really all that musical, so it isn't obviously intentional. It just sounds flawed.
 
Tips are welcome.
 
 It was recorded with a mic cable direct from the Bass Amp. The bass was an acoustic standup bass. I have no idea how the pickup in the bass was designed.
 
If you want to listen in context, try this...
http://stabilitynetwork.blob.core.windows.net/g-tunes/20131215_Vasi_07.mp3
Keep in mind with this track that I have done my level best to 'fix' all the slaps that sounded out of context.
 
Frankly, in some cases I've been splitting the bass track around the slap and just cutting it out all together.
post edited by gswitz - 2013/12/21 15:30:20

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
#1

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    Leadfoot
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    Re: Slap bass Struggles 2013/12/21 16:03:37 (permalink)
    That last one definitely looks like a clip. I couldn't really hear it though (just got my phone right now). I would split it like you've been doing. I know it can be time consuming, but if it's done right, no one will ever be able to tell that you messed with it. Groovy music, btw.
    #2
    The Maillard Reaction
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    Re: Slap bass Struggles 2013/12/21 16:04:08 (permalink)
    It could be a few things.
     
    Sometimes the slap sends the string down onto the pickup cover or magnet and you get a little micro-phonic "pop". Sometimes it's just a nasty fret noise that ends up seeming like a metallic percussion hit. If it's an active pickup it could be a nasty electronic gasp in the on board pre amp.
     
    Having just listened, it's hard to guess what that is... especially because the overall signal level seems fairly tame and the playing doesn't seem out of control.
     
    Light strings and slack tuning???
     
    1) In general, I'd try the easy thing first: Hard limit it down so that they are no louder than the other peaks. You can set the threshold so that it barely changes the character of the bass, and then you can use a compressor after the fact to work on the character if you want.
     
    2) I doubt that is going to help and so, If that doesn't work, I'd open that track's audio file in a wave editor and work on the smallest number of samples you can to turn down the level of the offending "pops". This will work better than the hard limit as you can lower the volume of just the offensive stuff and leave all the rest untouched. It will seem like it takes forever, but if you start and dig in you will get through it and when it's done it's done.
     
    It seems like it would be worth working with that bassist and finding out what is actually causing it as the ensemble seems to be playing some really cool stuff and it'd be a shame if you didn't get it figured out for the next gig.
     
    Happy Holidays!
     
    best regards,
    mike


    #3
    Jeff Evans
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    Re: Slap bass Struggles 2013/12/21 16:17:01 (permalink)
    Slap bass is not the word I use to describe that instrument. Acoustic double bass is better. For me slap bass implies what electric players do and that also creates some similar issues.
     
    I think you will find these sounds are intentional and usually will be in time with the groove. It is a percussive and rhythmical effect. It adds to the sound the acoustic bass player is creating.
     
    This is when a separate editor (Adobe Audition etc) is still superior to everything else. You just open a track like this and target the very loud short sounds. Hard limiting is good to do here, eg you limit the top of that peak to match the rest of the track or perhaps be 2 or 3 dB louder. You do not reduce gain here to solve these issues, leave the bottom part of the transient alone just limit how far up it goes.
     
    A little EQ can also go a long way on these snappy percussive bits.  I like to then limit the peaks of the whole track down to a more manageable level and add some rms to everything to bring up the level overall. You do all this prep before mixing starts. Save this with the word ED after the original title so you have the original track intact. Drag this into your session te replace the existing bass part. Sets up a nice bass sound right from outset.
     
    By doing this prep work properly what you are doing is leaving the original bass track intact with all its dynamics and original life but now all those percussive transients are fixed and sit well with everything else on that track. That is what is excellent about the editor. It targets only very precise areas and leaves everything else alone. Something a processor over a whole track cannot achieve. It still has to be involved with everything even to only tame a few things here and there.
     
    Now the only processors you need are gentle compression types to just clamp down the level a little further and add a hint of attitude. With this compressor too don't have the attack too fast either. Let it breath a little and let those transients through. (eg 10 ms or so) Low ratio like 2 or less to keep the sound big. Small ratio means big sound. By the time you get to this point in your mix the percussive sounds will still be present but much more blended with everything and sound good, aiding the music.
     
    I assume you are using a mic to record acoustic bass. Despite any spill that may result it is still worth it by far. You are not over dubbing anything so it does not matter so much. This sound will always be emphasised in the DI signal too. If you are mixing DI and mic signals together here you can always drop out the DI hits from the mix at those points too. Do some fades either side of it etc..If you combine DI and mic sounds it is good to filter the DI sound after about 700 Hz or so and just use it to add sustain and a little depth to the acoustic sound.
    post edited by Jeff Evans - 2013/12/21 16:27:24

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    #4
    batsbrew
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    Re: Slap bass Struggles 2013/12/21 16:17:03 (permalink)
    you have to tame these peaks BEFORE they hit the convertors...
     
    or
     
    you have to greatly reduce your input gain, so that you never peak, then process it after the fact once it's in the daw.
     
    i use a fairly quick acting outboard compressor for slap bass, set up for limiting

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    The Maillard Reaction
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    Re: Slap bass Struggles 2013/12/21 17:16:36 (permalink)
    Could it be be a clip on mic with clip that isn't fully secure, or it could be a stand up bass getting knocked into a microphone?
     
     


    #6
    Jeff Evans
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    Re: Slap bass Struggles 2013/12/21 18:15:26 (permalink)
    On that little mp3 clip the first one sounds intentional after the bass line goes up higher (in time more so) but the second one after the low notes sounds more like a technical fault.
     
    It sounds a little out of tune to me too but that could be me.

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    Kev999
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    Re: Slap bass Struggles 2013/12/21 20:57:01 (permalink)
    mike_mccue
    Sometimes the slap sends the string down onto the pickup cover or magnet and you get a little micro-phonic "pop". Sometimes it's just a nasty fret noise that ends up seeming like a metallic percussion hit. If it's an active pickup it could be a nasty electronic gasp in the on board pre amp.



    That's exactly what it sounds like to me, i.e. the string touching the pickup.  The instrument needs to be set up correctly so that this doesn't happen.
     
    And slap bass is not the style used here.

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    gswitz
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    Re: Slap bass Struggles 2013/12/21 21:24:42 (permalink)
    Ok. Thanks for all the information from everyone. It's a standup fretless bass. I watched him perform it, obviously, and he seemed to slap the strings with his hand from time to time. During the performance, it was not as distracting as it is in the mix.
     
    What I recorded is effectively a DI. In other words, his bass was plugged into an amp and there's a send on the back of his amp that I recorded from.
     
    All of your information is really good. Mike and Jeff, special thanks for your detailed explanations.
     
    I hadn't hard limited the track yet. I had applied some good EQ. It was when I listened in the car that I kept noticing sounds that seemed out of place in the mix. As I ran them down, they were always off the bass track.
     
    Jeff, I think you're right that during the performance, the sound in the room was much tamer than what I captured on the recording.
     
    I'll try the hard limiting. I mostly use limiting on a final mix. I don't have a lot of experience adjusting limiting song by song to reduce this kind of attack on the instrument.
     
    There are no cases in the image I show in this post where the signal actually clips. I also agree with Jeff's assessment that in the mp3 clip that the first one is the more common sound I'm struggling with and the second was an unusual incidental that seemed unintentional.
     
    Again, a loud thanks to everyone who responded!

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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    batsbrew
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    Re: Slap bass Struggles 2013/12/22 14:02:32 (permalink)
    again, i say, outboard compression.
     
    i'm talking to myself here, i know.....

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    Jeff Evans
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    Re: Slap bass Struggles 2013/12/22 16:33:05 (permalink)
    No I hear ya! Yeah I think if you got a nice one and put the sound through by all means. I have set it for limiting with a very high threshold so all it does it stops the digital system from clipping. Fast attack to catch it in time etc..Essential with some very dynamic singers.
     
    The VU meter is perfect for setting bass levels. And with either 14 or 20 dB headroom you can still record transient peaks nicely and work on them later just as effectively. Being in 24 bit and all.
     
    In a studio with slight baffling a good close up mic sound of an acoustic bass is possible with the DI being used for reinforcement. Just using the low end of the DI sound is effective in beefing up the acoustic mic sound. The spill is part of the mix sound.
     

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    Beepster
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    Re: Slap bass Struggles 2013/12/22 17:22:31 (permalink)
    The wave looks exactly like when I touch the pickup on my P with the string (because some dumbass broke the cover so one side is popped up... and no I'm not the dumbass). I didn't listen to the wave but if that noise is what I think it sounds like I'd use audiosnap, set the threshold so it only snags those clips and create a midi track. Then I'd cut those clips right out of the audio track and find a sample to replace it that isn't basically a pickup pop.
     
    A lot of not so seasoned bass guys think that the pop of the pickup is how you do proper pop and slap (as I used to). It is not. You are supposed to get the pop/slap off the fretboard. Having it hit the pickup is okay as a percussive sound live because nobody notices (except perhaps the sound guy cursing under his breath). On a recording it's a freaking nightmare. If it is indeed the strings hitting the pickup get rid of it because it's no good to no one.
     
    Of course you know I'm a hack but I do know that a string mashing into a pickup under the guise of "pop and slap" just does not sound good on tape because I've done it and it sucks.
     
    Watch pro pop/slappers and you'll see their right hands are doing all the really dirty work at the bottom of the fretboard... not above the pickups.
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    Beepster
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    Re: Slap bass Struggles 2013/12/22 17:25:45 (permalink)
    And here's an idea (and I'm sorry I have not read the thread)... if you DO have a couple good pops/slaps in there you could sample them, do the MIDI replacement and Melodyne them to be the right pitch.
     
    I of course have never done anything like that and have no fricken' clue how that would sound but theoretical it could work if you really wanted to go crazy on it.
     
    Cheers, bro.
     
    #13
    gswitz
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    Re: Slap bass Struggles 2013/12/22 18:57:03 (permalink)
    BatsBrew, I'm totally listening. I have a compressor that I didn't bring with me to make that particular recording. So it looks like I'll be applying limiting after the recording.
     
    This was a bar-room recording where my phone dB meter was pegged at 130 dB. So it was REALLY loud.
     
    I'll keep at it. I think I can end up with something listenable.
     
     

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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    The Maillard Reaction
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    Re: Slap bass Struggles 2013/12/22 19:26:34 (permalink)
    Hi Geoff,
     
     Was it an acoustic double bass or was it a new fangled solid body stand up bass?
     
     I like to record bass with compression. I use a LA610 preamp with its built in LA2A style limiting amplifier. I like to use the limiting to get a specific sound. However, I don't see the merit of using a limiter to mask or hide a sound that I suspect is the result of a mechanical or electronic issue that can probably be eliminated in the future.
     
     Your signal levels are no where near clipping... so using a limiter to prevent clipping doesn't seem like a priority.
     
     Finding the source of those clicks seems like the way to go.
     
     After all, if you limit those clicks on the way in it will just be harder to find them when you use the wave editor to edit them out by hand. :-)
     
     I'm curious to learn more about the instrument.
     
     If it's acoustic double bass I'd opine that loose clip on mics or loose after market electronics are common issues.
     
     If it's a new style solid body... it still sounds like something is loose and clicking or knocking.
     
     best regards,
    mike


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    gswitz
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    Re: Slap bass Struggles 2013/12/22 19:50:01 (permalink)
    Thanks, Mike. It is an acoustic double bass. I had to google for picts because I'd never heard it called a double bass before. What makes it double? haha. Anyway. I think some of the problem is the strings hitting the pickup in some cases, and the slap of the strings on the fretboard in other cases.
     
    I haven't had much chance to work with it. I'm hoping to get some time tomorrow.

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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    Kev999
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    Re: Slap bass Struggles 2013/12/22 20:42:38 (permalink)
    gswitz
    I think some of the problem is the strings hitting the pickup...



    So where exactly is the pickup?  Is it built-in or clipped-on?

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    The Maillard Reaction
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    Re: Slap bass Struggles 2013/12/22 21:12:12 (permalink)
    "What makes it double?"
     
    I don't have an answer I know to be factual. It is what the Contra Bass has been referred to traditionally.
     
    There are lots of things I can assume, and I think an easy clue might be found here:
     



    #18
    The Maillard Reaction
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    Re: Slap bass Struggles 2013/12/22 21:21:41 (permalink)
    I thought this was interesting:
     
    From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_bass
     
     
    "Slap-style bass[edit]
    Slap-style bass is sometimes used in bluegrass bass playing. When bluegrass bass players slap the string by pulling it until it hits the fingerboard or hit the strings against the fingerboard, it adds the high-pitched percussive "clack" or "slap" sound to the low-pitched bass notes, sounding much like the clacks of a tap dancer. Slapping is a subject of minor controversy in the bluegrass scene. Even slapping experts such as Mike Bub say, "Don't slap on every gig," or in songs where it is not appropriate. As well, bluegrass bassists who play slap-style on live shows often slap less on records. Bub and his mentor Jerry McCoury rarely do slap bass on recordings. While bassists such as Jack Cook slap bass on the occasional faster "Clinch Mountain Boys song," bassists such as Gene LibbeaMissy RainesJenny Keel, and Barry Bales [rarely] slap bass.[33]
    Bluegrass bassist Mark Schatz, who teaches slap bass in his Intermediate Bluegrass Bass DVD acknowledges that slap bass "...has not been stylistically very predominant in the music I have recorded." He notes that "Even in traditional bluegrass slap bass only appears sporadically and most of what I've done has been on the more contemporary side of that (Tony Rice, Tim O'Brien)." Schatz states that he would be "... more likely to use it [slap] in a live situation than on a recording—for a solo or to punctuate a particular place in a song or tune where I wouldn't be obliterating someone's solo."[34] Another bluegrass method, Learn to Play Bluegrass Bass, by Earl Gately, also teaches bluegrass slap bass technique. German bassist Didi Beck plays rapid triplet slaps, as demonstrated in this video [2]."
     
    It seems like when I watch a bassist play in this style I can hear the acoustic sound of the slap and it has a lot of resonance and a short but palpable decay. I wonder if the sound seems sterile because it is just a direct out rather than a stylized percussion sound resonating through the body.
     
    best regards,
    mike
     


    #19
    gswitz
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    Re: Slap bass Struggles 2013/12/23 07:32:36 (permalink)
    Mike, What you described in your snipped it EXACTLY what he was up to. This was incredibly helpful to me to read. I always learn so much here! You all are an amazing resource!!
     
    Regarding mic placement on the bass, you can see it in this image. I don't know enough about mics on basses to be able to comment but the thing is visible. If you open the link, you can zoom in better.
     
    http://stabilitynetwork.blob.core.windows.net/g-tunes/IMG_5253.JPG

    http://stabilitynetwork.blob.core.windows.net/g-tunes/IMG_5255.JPG


    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #20
    gswitz
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    Re: Slap bass Struggles 2013/12/23 08:22:27 (permalink)
    Here is a different sample of the track before FX...
    http://stabilitynetwork.blob.core.windows.net/g-tunes/Bass.mp3
     
    Here is the same sample after applying
    • the BT Brick Wall limiter (The BT Mastering Limiter wasn't fast enough)
    • TH2 using the Brunetti Amp with the IR Cabinet
    • I split the track and put a hint of Softtube Saturation on freqs above 125
    • I joined it back together and put Waves RBass on where intensity=-13
    • I put I high shelf @1726 -8.7dB EType
    This is the result...
    http://stabilitynetwork.blob.core.windows.net/g-tunes/Bass_BT_BrickWall_TH2Brunetti_RBass.mp3
     
    I like it better for sure. Feedback is of course still welcome.

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #21
    Leadfoot
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    Re: Slap bass Struggles 2013/12/23 08:46:13 (permalink)
    I would venture to say that, judging by the pictures, as long as the clip-on mic wasn't loose, that the sound was completely made by the strings hitting the fingerboard, and most likely intentional. I've played with quite a few double bass players, and they all slapped the fingerboard like that.
    #22
    Starise
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    Re: Slap bass Struggles 2013/12/23 13:54:40 (permalink)
     I would seriously consider retracking that part if it were me. It doesn't sound like a hard part to track. It sounds like the instrument and the technique. You could replace it with something else, like a synth bass.
     
     

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    #23
    Guitarhacker
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    Re: Slap bass Struggles 2013/12/23 14:31:46 (permalink)
    gswitz
    This was a bar-room recording where my phone dB meter was pegged at 130 dB. So it was REALLY loud.
     



     
    Wow... above the threshold of pain... we're talking jet engine levels of sound... looking at the photo... I'm thinking the phone db meter isn't very accurate.... 130db with that band and PA setup, not very likely.

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    Jeff Evans
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    Re: Slap bass Struggles 2013/12/23 14:56:43 (permalink)
    The acoustic double bass can make slap sounds and it would have been happening in Jazz as well. Jazz players use it all the time all be in a much more interesting way.
     
    What could make it boring if over used anywhere is when it is played in a not so interesting manner with poor time. How about use in an amazingly interesting way with great time. Then it could seen as invaluable. False notes of this type can be edited out completely.
     
    Recording it has to be taken into consideration. Placing a mic pointing at the f hole will give you a good sound and augment that with the DI sound. That mic may have to be secured with some form of bracket attached to the instrument itself. Which f hole also depends a little too. One is bassier than the other for obvious reasons so you can choose to mic the preferred f hole. You can mic the f hole from a separate mic on a stand as long as the bass player is relatively still. The string being pulled out and let slap back onto the fret board sound is not so out of control at that position. PA guys can use the DI sound live for volume and a little of the mic sound for realism. The Jazz guys can use it for making themselves a little louder because some modern Jazz is getting pretty loud at times. The Jazz acoustic players need all the help they can get.
     
    Getting a decent mic inside it too could be an alternative to the pickup sound. I wish more double bass players would go to the trouble of doing this. The sound is quite loud in there with minimal spill from the outside world too. I once recorded a (very soft and quiet) Vietnamese zither from inside it as well as outside of course. I was amazed how good it sounded inside and how little spill there was from quite a loud band.
     
    I would be very surprised if that performance and recording reached 130 dB as well. That is seriously loud and a band would have to tbe playing as loud as it could through a pretty big PA in order to reach those sort of levels. I don't see that in the picture. Sounds like there is some form of distortion on that recording as well. Not sure what that is but it could have been recorded cleaner perhaps. Mechanical faults can create very distorted sounds. Like a screw loose in a FOH PA full range speaker or something rattling in a pickup situation.
     
    Eventually a VST will come out that will restore the DI sound to a full acoustic miced up sound.  There are a few hardware things that attempt to do it now with varying degrees of success I believe.
    post edited by Jeff Evans - 2013/12/23 15:00:06

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    #25
    gswitz
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    Re: Slap bass Struggles 2013/12/23 15:31:15 (permalink)
    Yes, I have not calibrated the Phone dB Meter. It says my car on the highway with windows down is @100dB (no stereo). I have nothing better to compare it to, so I don't know how accurate it is. I wouldn't say it was above the threshold of pain but it was screamingly loud. I had to lend the Drummer's GF earplugs for her to be able to stay.

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #26
    Danny Danzi
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    Re: Slap bass Struggles 2014/01/03 01:41:08 (permalink)
    I know I'm late to the party here...but have you tried the Cakewalk Transient Shaper? Sounds like it would do a great job on this as it would soften the blow. Agree on the outboard comp...but if you didn't get a chance to use it, not much you can do. That TS is a good little plug with lots of potential and control. I made a video using it on various instruments. If you're interested G, let me know and I'll send a link your way.
     
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    #27
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