AnsweredHow can I make Sonar more "reliable?"

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Cooltouch
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2013/12/31 05:15:39 (permalink)

How can I make Sonar more "reliable?"

I'm using X2 after using X1 for a while before upgrading, but I find the problem to be evident with both versions, however X2 seems to be a bit more temperamental that X1. And perhaps that's a really good word to describe what I've been experiencing: temperamental.
 
It has become an all too common problem for me that, when I load a file -- typically a file with midi instruments and soft synths -- that when I hit the "Play" button, no sound is heard. I have found from much trial and error that it usually takes one of two actions to bring the sound back. I have to either go to Edit>Preferences, and then fiddle around with the settings in there -- usually opening up the ASIO Panel is enough. Hit "Apply" the quit out of there, and often my sound will be back. Sometimes that doesn't work, though, and I have to go to the soft synth's settings -- usually just calling up the patch or instrument (which was already resident) is enough to get Sonar to wake up and start producing music. I don't understand why I have to go back into the Preferences to make Sonar "wake up" and produce sound, or why I have to visit the soft synth and "bump" its patch so it'll be heard again.
 
Currently I'm beginning work on a project where I will be switching between patches/instruments from the same soft synth on the same track. In case you didn't follow that, say I'm using -- oh, Rapture64LE, for example. For the first several measures, I will have R64LE playing one patch, and then I will send a MIDI instruction to R64LE to switch to a different patch. I'll be doing this across a few tracks, which will be layered together, but some of these tracks will be sharing the same soft synth and they will be sending instructions to switch patches after a given number of measures.  I can already envision Sonar giving me fits over this.
 
So if you have any recommendations about what I can do to make Sonar a more reliable, cooperative program, I sure wouldn't mind hearing from you. Thanks in advance.
 
 
post edited by Cooltouch - 2013/12/31 05:19:06

Best,

Michael
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57Gregy
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Re: How can I make Sonar more "reliable?" 2013/12/31 09:32:41 (permalink)
What's your sound card/audio interface?
What operating system are you using?
Have you got the latest drivers for the sound card/audio interface?
Have you applied the latest updates and patches for X2 (if any)?

Greg 
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gcolbert
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Re: How can I make Sonar more "reliable?" 2013/12/31 10:22:45 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Cooltouch 2014/01/01 11:02:23
I used to have issues with the Audio Engine that sound a lot like what you are experiencing.  I would load a project and hit play in the transport and - no sound.  Even worse, I could not stop the project until it reached its own end.  I would end up putzing with things like the audio engine button or playing with the patches and the sound would magically start working (changing something in the ASIO panel seemed to always fix it).  The next time I would open Sonar, same thing - no sound until I played around with things and then it would start working again.
 
I played around with two things that I think made the difference.  Once things started working I quit experimenting so I'm not really sure which was the cure.
 
1) I was using ASIO4ALL to talk to an audio Interface (AI) that did not have ASIO drivers (Alesis IO|2).  I did some tests and found that I actually got better performance using WDM/KS driver mode than ASIO4ALL anyway so I uninstalled ASIO4ALL.  2) As a part of this change I also modified my windows settings to allow applications to take exclusive control of the Alesis interface, set windows preferences to give exclusive applications priority to the Alesis, and changed Sonar to not share drivers with other programs. 
 
I also made sure that my internal sound card was defined as the default audio device in Windows.
 
In the Sonar devices settings, I made sure that the internal sound card was not checked (making it unavailable to Sonar).  These settings ensured that Sonar was not competing with any other applications for the AI when it opened up.
 
I believe that there is an issue between Sonar and ASIO4ALL (and possibly some other ASIO drivers) when it initializes.  This is/was not a problem using the WDM/KS drivers. 
 
I haven't had the problem since making these changes and I'm getting better performance using the WDM/KS drivers anyway.  I realize that some devices just don't cut it without the ASIO driver and this may be the case with your setup, but it is worth experimenting with. 
 
Glen
post edited by gcolbert - 2013/12/31 10:30:33

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Cooltouch
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Re: How can I make Sonar more "reliable?" 2013/12/31 15:09:39 (permalink)
Thanks very much for the feedback, guys.
 
Greg, sorry I should have mentioned the basics. I'm running Win7 Ultimate 64-bit with SP1 installed on a platform with an AMD Phenom II X4 840 3.2 GHz processor and 8 GB of RAM, and with a couple of terabytes of drive space.
My sound card is an M-Audio Delta 66 with OMNI box and I have the latest drivers installed. I am not using any other audio interfaces at this time. I'm running Sonar X2a, which, last time I checked -- which was a couple weeks ago -- is the latest version.
 
Glen, yes it does sound as if you and I have experienced, if not the same, then at least very similar problems. I also have an Alesis iO2, but all I've done with it on my DAW is just try it out. I bought it so I could bring a guitar signal into my laptop. I have other means I use to do the same with my DAW.
 
You wrote: "I played around with two things that I think made the difference.  Once things started working I quit experimenting so I'm not really sure which was the cure."
 
Man, does that ever sound familiar! I've gotten a little better at taking notes now, so I can figure out what it was exactly I did that made a difference.
 
My setup is a little more complex than yours. I too am using ASIO4ALL drivers. I find that, not only do I get a little but less latency using them, but I also get more headroom with them, and the latter is actually the more important for me at this time.
 
I also have an old Creative Sound Blaster Live! card installed and I'm using the KX drivers (see http://kxproject.com/) for it. However, because I am using the Delta 66's OMNI box for my main mixer for now, I have the KX drivers deactivated in ASIO4ALL. I installed the SB Live! because it has a synth chip and there are a few patches on that chip that I'd like to have access to. But for a reason that may be specific to that card's hardware design, or perhaps limitations of the KX drivers, I can't hear its MIDI output unless I'm using its audio out also, which I don't want to do right now. So, while it is activated in Windows, it is deactivated in Sonar because I've left it unchecked in the ASIO panel. I doubt very seriously that the SB Live! card is contributing to this problems, simply because it existed before I installed the card. And after installation, there was no difference in system performance.
 
The sound chip on the motherboard is actually a pretty sophisticated piece of audio hardware -- it supports up to 24/192, whereas my Delta card only goes up to 24/96. But the Delta is a dead silent card with an audio floor at almost bedrock level, plus it has some of the best DACs and ADCs in the business, so it continues to be my primary sound card. I have the onboard sound chip activated in CMOS, but deactivated in Windows. I have the Delta card defined as the default audio device for both playback and recording.
 
In Sonar, because of the Delta's six INs and OUTs, there is a plethora of audio devices to choose from. But to keep things as simple as possible, I have only the Delta IN 1/2 1 (stereo) and Delta OUT 1/2 1 (stereo) drivers checked (one each). I have left the others active in the ASIO panel, albeit for no good reason. I suppose I could uncheck them as well and see if that might make a difference.
 
I really hope it's not a conflict between Sonar and ASIO, as you suggest. Actually, there are two flavors of ASIO drivers --  those supplied by ASIO4ALL and those supplied by M-Audio. I'm using the ones supplied by ASIO, mostly because it seems the system wants to default to them (the ones by M-Audio are grayed out, and remained grayed out when I played around with settings some to see if I could activate them).
 
I don't recall now if I tried using the WDM/KS drivers, or if it was just the MME drivers. I think it might have been just the MME's -- but I recall having an issue with them (don't recall what it is anymore -- might have been headroom) that caused me to switch back to ASIO. I'll give the WDM/KS setting a try and see what happens.
 
I'll check back in after trying out the WDM/KS drivers with results. It might be a while though. Currently Sonar is behaving and I'm trying to get some work done while it is.
 
 
 
 
 
post edited by Cooltouch - 2013/12/31 15:11:46

Best,

Michael
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Re: How can I make Sonar more "reliable?" 2013/12/31 19:02:56 (permalink) ☼ Best Answerby Cooltouch 2014/01/01 11:03:42
Since ASIO4All is just a wrapper for the WDM driver and not a true ASIO driver, I think you would be best served by using M-Audio's true ASIO driver.
The problem with you not being able to select it is the very aggressive nature of ASIO4All. It won't let you select it.
If you want to see if there is a difference in performance between the 2 drivers, you will have to delete ASIO4All from your computer so you can use the M-Audio driver.

Greg 
I am selling my MIM Fender Stratocaster HSS, red and black. PM for more details.

Music Creator 2003, MC Pro 24, SONAR Home Studio 6 XL, SONAR  X3e, CbB, Focusrite Saffire, not enough space.
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Cooltouch
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Re: How can I make Sonar more "reliable?" 2013/12/31 19:11:25 (permalink)
Hey Greg, I wasn't aware that ASIO4ALL was a wrapper for WDM, but heck, I don't know much about programming. Took a course in BASIC about 25 years ago, does that count? Didn't think so. So I'll take your word for it regarding this "wrapper" business -- a bit of jargon I'm not familiar with.
 
Okay, so I decided to see if I could just deactivate ASIO4ALL without deleting it. So I looked up all the items in my Startup folder, but surprise, ASIO4ALL wasn't in there.  Just as well. A bunch of stuff was in there I didn't want, so I got rid of it. Then I turned my attention to the system tray, only to discover that the only icons I could actually turn off were system icons.  Seems odd, don't it? Why can't I turn off add-in stuff, half of which I didn't ask to be put in there to begin with? So, having run out of options that I knew about, I just uninstalled ASIO4ALL. I noted, when I booted Sonar again, that the M-Audio ASIO drivers were now resident. I had to do a bit of fiddling around before the recording and playback timing drivers showed up, but eventually they did.
 
So here goes. Let's see if this has improved reliability any. I'll check back later.
post edited by Cooltouch - 2013/12/31 21:34:35

Best,

Michael
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Re: How can I make Sonar more "reliable?" 2013/12/31 21:50:46 (permalink)
I'm no software genius myself; I never even took a BASIC course.
I just read that on these forums.
If it turns out that ASIO4All works better than M-Audio's driver, you can always download it again.
Good luck!

Greg 
I am selling my MIM Fender Stratocaster HSS, red and black. PM for more details.

Music Creator 2003, MC Pro 24, SONAR Home Studio 6 XL, SONAR  X3e, CbB, Focusrite Saffire, not enough space.
Everything is better with pie. 

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=609446
http://www.reverbnation.com/#!/gregfields 
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Cooltouch
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Re: How can I make Sonar more "reliable?" 2014/01/01 00:19:21 (permalink)
Oh, I won't need to d/l ASIO4ALL again -- it still exists on the hard drive. Albeit in its uninstalled state.
 
I've run into a snag with the project I'm working on that has nothing to do with the drivers -- I hope. I'm gonna search the forums and see if it's been discussed before -- probably hasn't. In which case, I'll have to start a thread.
 
 

Best,

Michael
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