WhiteSheet
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More RAM or better SOUNDCARD?
Hey guys, i'm struggling with something really basic i guess. Recently i have got myself a lot of new VST's and some of them (e. g. Tyrell N6) seem to use up a lot of CPU and therefore crash all the time, sometimes even Sonar X1 crashes :/ So i checked for things to do to solve this and found two options: increase the RAM of the laptop (i got 4GB built in of which strangely only 2.9GB are used..) or get a better soundcard (which seems to be really a problem with a laptop). So concerning the soundcard issue i found the following: - i tried ASIO but it didn't help so much and also sound is not working for all other utilities of my pc while i am using Sonar and therefore i would have to close Sonar before i could listen again to music on the internet for example which is annoying
- i found a video explaining how to sort of allocate more RAM by taking it away from harddrive memory (??) and giving it to the RAM (??? sorry i'm not an expert..) but people who have tried it say it makes your computer crash once and for all so i avoided that
- you could also use a usb stick as additional RAM but that didn't work for me as well
- and now i was about to try to get the 1.1 GB of unused RAM (4 GB - 2.9 GB available) working but decided to ask if that would make any difference for solving my problem which i described above
So has any of you guys had to deal with the same issue? Have you ever gotten yourselves a better soundcard?? Would be sooo glad if anyone could help me out thanks a lot in advance and cheers (and happy new year as well!!)
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Guitarpima
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Re: More RAM or better SOUNDCARD?
2014/01/01 11:25:19
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☼ Best Answerby WhiteSheet 2014/01/01 11:25:49
We can't help you with only the information given. A laptop and 4gb of ram is only that. What soundcard? Laptop specs?
Notation, the original DAW. Everything else is just rote. We are who we are and no more than another. Humans, you people are crazy. Win 7 x64 X2 Intel DX58SO, Intel i7 920 2.66ghz 12gb DDR3 ASUS ATI EAH5750 650w PSU 4x WD HDs 320gb DVD, DVD RW Eleven Rack, KRK Rokit 8s and 10s sub
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WhiteSheet
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Re: More RAM or better SOUNDCARD?
2014/01/01 11:29:34
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alright my system properties are the following (if that helps any?)
Intel Core i5 2340M CPU @ 2.4GHz
RAM 4.00 (2.92 GB in use)
Windows 7 Professional, 32-Bit
and i would tell you what soundcard i'm using but i don't know where i can look that up :/
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scook
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Re: More RAM or better SOUNDCARD?
2014/01/01 11:31:49
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☄ Helpfulby WhiteSheet 2014/01/01 11:33:04
Given your OS, the answer is easy...a better audio interface. 32bit Windows cannot use more than 4GB of RAM.
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WhiteSheet
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Re: More RAM or better SOUNDCARD?
2014/01/01 11:34:08
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oh.. so for a better audio interface i would have to buy a new laptop, a 64bit windows for that matter?
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scook
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Re: More RAM or better SOUNDCARD?
2014/01/01 11:42:43
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Given the choice between adding more RAM or adding an audio interface to your existing solution, adding RAM would do nothing. Adding an external interface can give you a more reliable better performing DAW using your existing hardware. Even if you purchased a new laptop, you would probably want to buy an external audio interface designed for DAW use.
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robert_e_bone
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Re: More RAM or better SOUNDCARD?
2014/01/01 11:51:01
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Taking the load off of your CPU by picking up an audio interface, might make things work well enough on your current system to buy you time until you can upgrade your computer to a 64-bit machine with lots of memory.
And, you would carry the new interface forward to the new computer, so it would certainly not be money down the drain.
I used to run Sonar and also gig with a 32-bit XP Pro laptop, and it only was really possible due to having an audio interface.
So, I concur on suggesting the audio interface is the way to go, given your situation. DO make sure they have drivers for Windows 7 and Windows 8 (including 8.1), so that your future system is able to run properly. Some of the cheaper audio interfaces are cheap because they quit supporting them - no drivers = gnashing of teeth at some point down the road, so do your homework.
A decent audio interface can start at around $150 on up to many hundreds, depending on inputs/outputs/converters/pre-amps and the vendor.
Bob Bone
Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!" Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22 Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64 Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms
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Anderton
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Re: More RAM or better SOUNDCARD?
2014/01/01 11:51:04
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☄ Helpfulby WhiteSheet 2014/01/01 13:46:16
N WhiteSheet
oh.. so for a better audio interface i would have to buy a new laptop, a 64bit windows for that matter?
No. To make adding RAM meaningful, you would need 64-bit Windows. You already have all the RAM 32-bit Windows can address. Even if you had 128GB of RAM, 32-bit Windows would only "see" about 4GB of it. It wouldn't know the other RAM existed. But here are a few other tips. ASIO and Windows system audio: Many interfaces have drivers for both ASIO and Windows driver models like MME, WDM, or WASAPI. In the Windows control panel, you can tell Windows to use the MME/WDM/WASAPI driver, while Sonar uses the interface's ASIO drivers. Using the hard drive as RAM: Hard drives are much slower than RAM, so this will slow down performance. Windows will use the hard drive automatically as additional RAM when it runs out of system RAM, but your computer will feel a lot slower. USB stick as additional RAM: This speeds up your Windows system, but won't do a lot for your virtual instruments. However, I've had success with streaming samples from USB sticks for sampling-based instruments. I've even stored entire projects on USB sticks and playback from the stick. However, recording lots of tracks to USB sticks can be a problem. USB sticks can read data fast, but not write data equally fast. If you bought your laptop from an Office Supply store or Best Buy or whatever, it probably came with a bunch of "bloatware" (like trial versions of Norton Anti-Virus, applications that are "supposed" to make using your computer simpler, etc.) and these load into RAM at boot-up. You can disable a lot of these using Windows' msconfig.exe routine (do a search, you'll find plenty of info on disabling unneeded startup programs). This can reclaim a substantial amount of RAM. However, if the problem is that the instruments are using too much CPU, then the most practical solution is to "freeze" a synth track as soon as it's recorded. This converts the instrument sound to an audio track, which uses much less CPU power. Your computer will likely be able to run at least one VST instrument at a time. You can always "thaw" a part if you need to go back and edit it.
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js516
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Re: More RAM or better SOUNDCARD?
2014/01/01 11:56:05
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☄ Helpfulby WhiteSheet 2014/01/01 13:46:12
A 32 bit OS can have a max of 4gb ram. A half a gigabyte is reserverd for PCI space leaving you with 3.5 gb ram. Also, if your laptop's video card does not have dedicated memory, some of the system ram will be reserved for the video card. Typically, this can be set to 256, 512, or 1024 mbs, depending on the hardware. However, here is something that I have not seen mentioned, is that a 32 bit application can access a maximum of 2gb ram regardless of how much memory you have available. This includes 32 bit apps running on 64 bit operating systems.If the 32 bit application is marked with a special flag known as "LARGEADDRESSAWARE", only then can it access more than 2gb (up to the 4gb limit) on a 64bit operating system. In the end, you will be better served by a quality audio interface.
post edited by js516 - 2014/01/01 12:14:41
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rsinger
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Re: More RAM or better SOUNDCARD?
2014/01/01 12:06:49
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WhiteSheet
oh.. so for a better audio interface i would have to buy a new laptop, a 64bit windows for that matter?
No it's a separate pieced of hardware. The Roland Quad Capture is an example, but there are many others. Google "audio interface". For the most part you'll find devices that plug into USB or Firewire ports.  Robert
Sonar Platinum, 64 bit, win 7 pro - 64 bit
Core i7 3770k 3.5 Ghz, 16 Gb Ram, 480Gb + 256Gb SSDs, 1 Tb Velociraptor, Echo AudioFire4
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WhiteSheet
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Re: More RAM or better SOUNDCARD?
2014/01/01 13:50:23
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ok thank you everybody so far.
one last thing: i HAVE GOT an audio interface (Steinberg UR22) which i use for microphone recording
BUT i cannot see how in the hell an audio interface would help me to solve my cpu problem??
what would you suggest to do? i only know an audio interface is needed to set up a connection between a microphone and the computer, but it is not NEEDED to connect a midi keyboard to the computer. would it help any to connect my speakers to the computer through the audio interface?
i hope you're not getting tired, but i'm really clueless about how the audio interface would make any difference here..
thanks
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Anderton
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Re: More RAM or better SOUNDCARD?
2014/01/01 13:53:17
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An audio interface would not solve your CPU problem. Based on the way your original post was worded, I thought the issue was trying to decide whether you'd be better off spending your money on more RAM or an audio interface.
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WhiteSheet
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Re: More RAM or better SOUNDCARD?
2014/01/01 13:59:33
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hm.. this is an example of what i thought a soundcard looked like  and this is built in into a computer. and i thought either increasing the ram or putting in a better soundcard (picture) could solve my problem. but as it seems using an audio interface additionally can have similar effects than exchanging the built in soundcard of the computer (i have no idea xDD) thanks for your patience with me
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js516
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Re: More RAM or better SOUNDCARD?
2014/01/01 14:05:09
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In your original post, you asked which would be better: More ram or a better sound card
You didn't mention you already had an audio interface, in the original post.
You also mention Sonar crashing, and that some VSTs use a lot of CPU.
So it seems you have 3 questions:
1) Why is Sonar crashing
2) Why are some VSTs using alot of CPU
3) which is better: More ram or a better sound card
#1 Sonar crashing - it may be a installation issue, driver issue, or a bad VST.
#2 Some VSTs use lots of CPU power, but using alot of CPU will not cause Sonar to crash. The worst that can happen is an audio dropout that causes your project to stop playing.
#3 is covered in several posts above.
As far as how an audio interface can help with a crash/cpu utilization: internal sound cards on laptops are ill suited for pro audio applications, and depending on the driver, can suck up alot of CPU power when pressed beyond consumer level usage. Interfaces designed for Pro audio are purpose built to handle the demands of pro audio applications.
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WhiteSheet
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Re: More RAM or better SOUNDCARD?
2014/01/01 14:14:36
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hm.. ok thanks a lot but no that's not what i meant. here's what i meant:
i have Sonar X1 installed correctly
i have got me some new vst plugins that use a lot of cpu
when i use one of them (that's when i play them through a midi keyboard) first of all there is an audio drop out and then sonar crashes and i have to restart it
i wanted to know if having more RAM can solve this as the plugins will have more to work with
or if a better soundcard (and btw i'm using an mme32 i think) would help
so yeah.. i don't know
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mgh
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Re: More RAM or better SOUNDCARD?
2014/01/01 14:19:34
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you need to use the Steinberg AI for ALL use in Sonar, including monitoring - turn off your laptop speakers and use headphones plugged into the Steinberg if you don't have speakers. this will likely solve some if not all of your issues
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ampfixer
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Re: More RAM or better SOUNDCARD?
2014/01/01 14:20:38
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You've had all the best advice at this point. If it were me I would upgrade to win7 64, and get an affordable external interface. You could access all your ram and get better throughput. 4 gigs and an i5 processor should perform pretty well. Avoid the hard drive as part of the solution. Most laptops have pretty slow drives. Also make sure to optimize your windows power settings.
Regards, John I want to make it clear that I am an Eedjit. I have no direct, or indirect, knowledge of business, the music industry, forum threads or the meaning of life. I know about amps. WIN 10 Pro X64, I7-3770k 16 gigs, ASUS Z77 pro, AMD 7950 3 gig, Steinberg UR44, A-Pro 500, Sonar Platinum, KRK Rokit 6
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WhiteSheet
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Re: More RAM or better SOUNDCARD?
2014/01/01 14:22:53
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ok thanks i will try that and see what it does
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Sanderxpander
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Re: More RAM or better SOUNDCARD?
2014/01/01 14:35:45
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An external audio interface is for all intents and purposes the same thing as a sound card. Since you're using your Steinberg interface, Sonar (or any other host) is not using the internal sound card at all, nor can it, at the same time.
If you're getting dropouts related to performance (playing more notes or opening more softsynths or fx causing trouble) the likeliest cause in your case is that your CPU has simply reached its limit. You can try to ease up on it by freezing tracks/synths that you're not actively playing or manipulating, or by increasing your audio buffer (which will also increase latency). Beyond that, your only option is upgrading your CPU which usually means getting a new computer.
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Vastman
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Re: More RAM or better SOUNDCARD?
2014/01/01 14:53:10
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ampfixer
You've had all the best advice at this point. If it were me I would upgrade to win7 64, and get an affordable external interface. You could access all your ram and get better throughput. 4 gigs and an i5 processor should perform pretty well. Avoid the hard drive as part of the solution. Most laptops have pretty slow drives. Also make sure to optimize your windows power settings.
I would agree... Also, google your specific computer and see how much ram your computer can handle... It probably has 2 2gb sticks right now for a total of 4 gb. It's quite easy to swap out the 2 gb sticks for 4gb sticks, so you would have 8... maybe google it with winx64bit as specs might reflect 32bit limit not necessarily the actual mother board limit... or google round for "has anyone used 8gb in >>>>> machine... Ram is dirt cheap... so, 1. external usb audio interface 2. win7x64 and 3. swap out memory would give you a nice machine for lots of purposes...
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robert_e_bone
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Re: More RAM or better SOUNDCARD?
2014/01/01 16:01:52
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It is possible that the interface is connected, but not pointed to in Sonar, and also he could be using WDM drivers, rather than ASIO.
What do you have the Driver Mode set to in Sonar, and what device are you pointing to? (ASIO or WDM, and audio interface or sound card)
What is your Sample Rate in Sonar, as well as the setting for the audio interface? (They must match)
What is your ASIO Buffer Size set to for your audio interface?
If you are not setting Sonar to use your audio interface, you should, and also try setting the Driver Mode to ASIO - taking advantage of your audio interface drivers.
Bob Bone
Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!" Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22 Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64 Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms
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codamedia
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Re: More RAM or better SOUNDCARD?
2014/01/01 19:11:53
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WhiteSheet
i wanted to know if having more RAM can solve this as the plugins will have more to work with
or if a better soundcard (and btw i'm using an mme32 i think) would help
You have a decent sound card (audio interface), but you are using the worst possible drivers for it. ASIO is your best option, or even WDM. Anything but MME. That may not be causing CPU issues, but it still needs to be addressed. Don't even bother with more ram unless you upgrade to a 64 bit OS - and install/run Sonar 64 bit.
Don't fix it in the mix ... Fix it in the take!
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Kev999
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Re: More RAM or better SOUNDCARD?
2014/01/01 19:31:09
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mettelus
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Re: More RAM or better SOUNDCARD?
2014/01/01 20:26:02
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I am not sure if I caught everything in this thread, but wanted to throw a few things out for thought. You mentioned you tried "ASIO" but wanted to hear other things too. There are two points with this specifically... 1) ASIO is the most efficient CPU/latency usage you can get, so please consider this when you are trying to cut down on CPU. ASIO (and WDM) drivers, bypass the windows kernel, so streamline audio and CPU usage from that alone. 2) As you realize you have CPU issues, throwing another driver mode (particularly MME if you are using that) into the mix is "just asking for pain." A second point is latency and I/O buffers. Have you adjusted your interface latency and I/O buffers for X1? This is an important step and is system specific, and should be done any time you make a change to the system. Just for clarification, can you please let us know what driver mode you are using with X1? If I missed that someplace, I apologize. I saw MME, but please clarify this (that is the absolute worst choice you can make for driver mode). Research and read up on "ASIO/WDM versus MME." Edit: I glazed over codamedia's response to you... so think MME is correct.
post edited by mettelus - 2014/01/01 20:32:28
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