konradh
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Automation: Something is Screwed Up
OK, I cut all automation from a project and started over mixing it. Everything was fine. I made several test mixes (exports) and each time made some minor tweak. The last time, the mix was a disater: Master red-lined, bass level was completely different, etc. And now I am back to the problem I documented before. The kick says it is at -11, but the fader is at 0, and it is very loud. All the other instruments display anomalies like this. I tried touching O off and on to see what happened. Most of the faders did not move when I went into offset mode, but, oddly, the three tracks that were most screwed up all went to 0 db which would indicate no offset. In other words, it's backwards. Essentially I wasted the entire day. What the hell...
Konrad Current album and more: http://www.themightykonrad.com/ Sonar X1d Producer. V-Studio 700. PC: Intel i7 CPU 3.07GHz, 12 GB RAM. Win 7 64-bit. RealGuitar, RealStrat, RealLPC, Ivory II, Vienna Symphonic, Hollywood Strings, Electr6ity, Acoustic Legends, FabFour, Scarbee Rick/J-Bass/P-Bass, Kontakt 5. NI Session Guitar. Boldersounds, Noisefirm. EZ Drummer 2. EZ Mix. Melodyne Assist. Guitar Rig 4. Tyros 2, JV-1080, Kurzweil PC2R, TC Helicon VoiceWorks+. Rode NT2a, EV RE20. Presonus Eureka. Rokit 6s.
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Splat
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Re: Automation: Something is Screwed Up
2014/01/01 20:25:50
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We would need more detail, step by step procedure from a newly created project etc to get to the heart of this I suggest. I half understand what you say, but you will first need to rule out whether this is project specific or not anyway.
Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed. @48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38. Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5.Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1.Addictive Keys,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist.Acronis True Image 2014.
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jb101
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Re: Automation: Something is Screwed Up
2014/01/01 20:39:05
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Hallo, Konrad, Happy New Year to you and yours.
I may have missed something in the other thread, and I know we have touched on this before, but have you checked that all tracks and busses are output to Master bus? And checked any odd sends?
I know you would have tried this, but I'm just clutching at straws.
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konradh
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Re: Automation: Something is Screwed Up
2014/01/01 21:45:57
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Thanks. Everything is going to master. In essence, the mix was fine. I clicked on a node to lower a guitar part one db and then re-exported and suddenly everything was way off. Strange. Even supposing I touched O for Offset (which I don't think I did), that would not automatically change the level of lots of tracks whose faders weren't touched. Weird. Unfortunately, I have done a ton of work on this track over the months so I can't recall everything that happened, but I do know this odd behavior has happened on other projects. I am going to cut all automation, make sure the offset is zero on every track, and then start over. Frustrating, but not sure what else can be done at this point.
Konrad Current album and more: http://www.themightykonrad.com/ Sonar X1d Producer. V-Studio 700. PC: Intel i7 CPU 3.07GHz, 12 GB RAM. Win 7 64-bit. RealGuitar, RealStrat, RealLPC, Ivory II, Vienna Symphonic, Hollywood Strings, Electr6ity, Acoustic Legends, FabFour, Scarbee Rick/J-Bass/P-Bass, Kontakt 5. NI Session Guitar. Boldersounds, Noisefirm. EZ Drummer 2. EZ Mix. Melodyne Assist. Guitar Rig 4. Tyros 2, JV-1080, Kurzweil PC2R, TC Helicon VoiceWorks+. Rode NT2a, EV RE20. Presonus Eureka. Rokit 6s.
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FastBikerBoy
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Re: Automation: Something is Screwed Up
2014/01/02 01:46:35
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Did you have more than one track selected when you made the node adjustment? Unlike track controls, nodes will respond on all selected tracks without holding down the ctrl key as you would have to when quick grouping controls. That's because the nodes within the selected range and tracks are all selected thus respond as one. A bit late for you on this project now but a tip I use is I to "save as" at landmark times of a project so I can always get back to a certain point. Each project I am working on has a main save name such as "My Project" and then others such as "My Project - Tracking finished", "My Project - Comping Finished", "My Project - Automation finished", etc. etc. HTH
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Anderton
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Re: Automation: Something is Screwed Up
2014/01/02 14:01:55
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FastBikerBoy A bit late for you on this project now but a tip I use is I to "save as" at landmark times of a project so I can always get back to a certain point. Each project I am working on has a main save name such as "My Project" and then others such as "My Project - Tracking finished", "My Project - Comping Finished", "My Project - Automation finished", etc. etc.
Another great FBB tip.
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FastBikerBoy
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Re: Automation: Something is Screwed Up
2014/01/03 02:20:47
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If I'm giving you tips Craig I am in awe. I have learned loads from you in the form of videos, forum posts and your "Sound on Sound" column of course. Thanks for all of that long may it continue.
post edited by FastBikerBoy - 2014/01/03 02:29:30
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mudgel
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Re: Automation: Something is Screwed Up
2014/01/03 04:00:19
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Many of us not only appreciate your in depth knowledge of Sonar but the manner in which you share it Karl.
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Anderton
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konradh
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Re: Automation: Something is Screwed Up
2014/01/03 11:23:14
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FBB and Craig are both awesome and we are lucky to have them participating here. About the Save As, I always saved multiple versions of my project along the way, but then a certain company told me that my string libraries (Vienna and Hollywood) were performing poorly because I needed more free disk space. So, I took a Saturday to move all but the most recent versions of every song to an external drive, keeping only the latest version of each on my internal drive (and backed up externally, of course). I then defragged the disk. This all made absolutely no improvement in the string performance.  I seemed to be cursed. I think the only solution is to buy a new PC (with SSDs for sample libraries), and install X3 fresh. (I will also try to install both my V-Studio I/O and MOTU Interface so I can toggle between the two. There is a theory going around that the V-Studio I/O causes a lot of my problems, but I do not believe it. The issues seem to be Sonar related and I know of no other Roland interface users with similar problems.) Needless to say, this would be costly and the time would be significant, since my Vienna libraries alone will take two days to install, and I have many other libraries. I will also have to go through all the onerous authentications (like NI!) and make sure eLicenser and iLok are working.
Konrad Current album and more: http://www.themightykonrad.com/ Sonar X1d Producer. V-Studio 700. PC: Intel i7 CPU 3.07GHz, 12 GB RAM. Win 7 64-bit. RealGuitar, RealStrat, RealLPC, Ivory II, Vienna Symphonic, Hollywood Strings, Electr6ity, Acoustic Legends, FabFour, Scarbee Rick/J-Bass/P-Bass, Kontakt 5. NI Session Guitar. Boldersounds, Noisefirm. EZ Drummer 2. EZ Mix. Melodyne Assist. Guitar Rig 4. Tyros 2, JV-1080, Kurzweil PC2R, TC Helicon VoiceWorks+. Rode NT2a, EV RE20. Presonus Eureka. Rokit 6s.
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Anderton
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Re: Automation: Something is Screwed Up
2014/01/03 11:32:24
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Konrad, I doubt the solution is to buy a new PC. I have found automation to be rock-solid with Sonar, BUT it's VERY easy to have pilot error cause problems. For example I clicked to enter a node in an automation section to raise the level, but didn't remember to enter another node in front of it to "anchor" the existing automation line. So the new node caused a massive level increase. Automation in Sonar is actually quite complex. I like that you can float the cursor along the top of a clip and drag up or down to change an entire envelope, but it took me a while to find that option. I also had to remember to set an initial level, and often, I need to use the Overwrite or Latch modes to maintain the integrity of the automation envelope. I now consider myself a "master of automation," but it has taken me a while to get there...and I'm probably fooling myself anyway! I'm sure there are things I still need to learn. It's frustrating that in your case, I think if I was in your studio looking over your shoulder, we'd narrow down the problem in minutes. Maybe you could do screen captures that illustrate how the automation problems occur?
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konradh
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Re: Automation: Something is Screwed Up
2014/01/03 12:00:38
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Craig, Many thanks. And the automation function may just be caused by a number of user-errors + awkward functions. I did discover that, for me, Offset works differently depending on whether or not tracks are in folders and whether or not they are Write-enabled. However, I do have many bizarre issues unrelated to automation that no one seems to be able to explain. I won't re-document them all here, but just to give you a a few examples so you know what I mean: 1-Sometimes I open a project and the Ins/Outs on every track are messed up: vocal track In set to Vienna, Ivory track output set to Fantom, external synths set to the wrong V-Studio inputs, MIDI Ins/Outs all wrong, etc. 2-Adding VIs/soft-synths will kill all audio. I have plenty of memory and CPU in all cases, and the number of VIs varies. For example, audio may stop in a project with six VIs (even though all the meters show audio in the track and at Master). Sometimes 13 VIs is OK and 14 kills audio. The odd thing is that I use the same VIs most of the time: RealGuitar, Kontakt, Ivory, etc. Sometimes I can solve the problem by freezing a synth. Sometimes I have to delete one. After freezing or deleting, I may get audio back by cycling the audio engine. Sometimes I have to reboot the PC. 3-Performance of large string libraries is terrible even though I have cleaned out disk space, defragged, and added memory. Although everyone says I should go to SSDs (and I will), other people use Vienna and Hollywod from spinning disks, and many do much more elaborate orchestration than I do. 4-Lots of crashes for odd reasons. Often, opening the Staff View will freeze/crash Sonar; sometimes it is opening Melodyne; sometimes it is just in the middle of normal editing; etc. 5-Common functions cease to wrok. Split clips will suddenly stop working. Often Crtl X/C/V stops working and edits can only be done from menus. Sometimes Cut/Copy/Paste stop working completely from either short-cuts or menus. Sometimes paste goes to unpredicable places and the Paste Special box won't allow me to direct it to the correct place. 6-A project will peak at Master. I replay the track from the start and there are no red peaks (not even close). Play it another time, and I get red again. There are no external synths or VIs running with LFO, modulation, etc. that vary signal strength or EQ. Those are just a few to give you an idea of how strange things are.
post edited by konradh - 2014/01/03 12:07:47
Konrad Current album and more: http://www.themightykonrad.com/ Sonar X1d Producer. V-Studio 700. PC: Intel i7 CPU 3.07GHz, 12 GB RAM. Win 7 64-bit. RealGuitar, RealStrat, RealLPC, Ivory II, Vienna Symphonic, Hollywood Strings, Electr6ity, Acoustic Legends, FabFour, Scarbee Rick/J-Bass/P-Bass, Kontakt 5. NI Session Guitar. Boldersounds, Noisefirm. EZ Drummer 2. EZ Mix. Melodyne Assist. Guitar Rig 4. Tyros 2, JV-1080, Kurzweil PC2R, TC Helicon VoiceWorks+. Rode NT2a, EV RE20. Presonus Eureka. Rokit 6s.
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Anderton
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Re: Automation: Something is Screwed Up
2014/01/03 15:05:50
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konradh 1-Sometimes I open a project and the Ins/Outs on every track are messed up: vocal track In set to Vienna, Ivory track output set to Fantom, external synths set to the wrong V-Studio inputs, MIDI Ins/Outs all wrong, etc. Do you have more than one audio interface? If there's an internal audio sound chip, have you tried disabling it using Device Manager? It's a long shot, but disabling the internal sound chip can sometimes help with various issues. 2-Adding VIs/soft-synths will kill all audio. I have plenty of memory and CPU in all cases, and the number of VIs varies. For example, audio may stop in a project with six VIs (even though all the meters show audio in the track and at Master). Sometimes 13 VIs is OK and 14 kills audio. The odd thing is that I use the same VIs most of the time: RealGuitar, Kontakt, Ivory, etc. Sometimes I can solve the problem by freezing a synth. Sometimes I have to delete one. After freezing or deleting, I may get audio back by cycling the audio engine. Sometimes I have to reboot the PC. Do you have the Kontakt 5.3 update? It solved a bunch of weird audio engine problems I had in projects that included Kontakt. These only showed up with large track counts. Now it's running super-smooth regardless of track count. 3-Performance of large string libraries is terrible even though I have cleaned out disk space, defragged, and added memory. Although everyone says I should go to SSDs (and I will), other people use Vienna and Hollywood from spinning disks, and many do much more elaborate orchestration than I do. There could be lots of reasons for this...I don't have Vienna or Hollywood installed, so can't offer any specific tips. But do remember that even if samples stream from disk, they still need RAM to store the attacks. Sometimes you have to tell a program how much RAM to allocate. If you added RAM, there's no guarantee a program recognizes it and takes advantage of it...although it might... 4-Lots of crashes for odd reasons. Often, opening the Staff View will freeze/crash Sonar; sometimes it is opening Melodyne; sometimes it is just in the middle of normal editing; etc. Have you run memtest on your memory and chkdisk on your hard drives? Internal RAM is not flawless, does get hot, and can fail partially rather than doing a complete fail. I used to have incredibly strange, weird, unpredictable crashes and performances issues with a Mac. I did updates, repaired permissions, check the hard drive, tried uninstalling specific programs...everything. I even used a program to check the RAM, and it checked out okay. BUT...the program used the OS to check RAM. Only when I ran a RAM test from within the Mac's Command Line Interface (yes, it has one) was the problem identified as a bad RAM stick. Once I replaced that, my problems disappeared. 5-Common functions cease to work. Split clips will suddenly stop working. Often Crtl X/C/V stops working and edits can only be done from menus. Sometimes Cut/Copy/Paste stop working completely from either short-cuts or menus. Sometimes paste goes to unpredictable places and the Paste Special box won't allow me to direct it to the correct place. Humor me and try a different keyboard. Switches in most modern keyboard fail closed, not open. If a key is failing and closes periodically, you'll get all kinds of craziness. Why do I know? This has happened to me! 6-A project will peak at Master. I replay the track from the start and there are no red peaks (not even close). Play it another time, and I get red again. There are no external synths or VIs running with LFO, modulation, etc. that vary signal strength or EQ. That is clearly due to interference from alien lifeforms. Please check whether a UFO is hovering over your house.
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konradh
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Re: Automation: Something is Screwed Up
2014/01/03 21:19:19
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Craig, Thank you for taking time to reply so completely. Starting with your last point, as the best example of a human being's physical form and mental capabilities, it would not be surprising that I would be the subject of alien studies. I am on Kontakt 5.2.1.6xxx so going to 5.3 is worth a try. I only have one audio interface active. I believe Sweetwater would have disabled the internal sound chip in the Creation Station, but that is worth checking. I believe the memory and disk are OK, but I will recheck. About the keyboard, your observation is excellent and good to keep in mind. In this case, I have had these issues since Day1 and have changed keyboards a few times. Also, when Split stops working, it stops working from the menus and icons. Thanks again!
Konrad Current album and more: http://www.themightykonrad.com/ Sonar X1d Producer. V-Studio 700. PC: Intel i7 CPU 3.07GHz, 12 GB RAM. Win 7 64-bit. RealGuitar, RealStrat, RealLPC, Ivory II, Vienna Symphonic, Hollywood Strings, Electr6ity, Acoustic Legends, FabFour, Scarbee Rick/J-Bass/P-Bass, Kontakt 5. NI Session Guitar. Boldersounds, Noisefirm. EZ Drummer 2. EZ Mix. Melodyne Assist. Guitar Rig 4. Tyros 2, JV-1080, Kurzweil PC2R, TC Helicon VoiceWorks+. Rode NT2a, EV RE20. Presonus Eureka. Rokit 6s.
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