rontarrant
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Heavy-handed Melodyne-ing?
After correcting a lead vocal line the other day, another local audio engineer (without knowing that I'd pitch-corrected it or what I'd used for the job) said it now has "a Melodyne-ish pitch issue in some parts." I didn't correct any notes by more than two or three half-steps and I bounced to a new track after correction so that, I assume, the behind-the-scenes Melodyne engine would give me the best possible results. So, I have two questions: 1) Did this happen because I've been heavy-handed with Melodyne or I need to study it more to use it properly? Or 2) Have I run into the limitations of Melodyne? [EDIT] Actually, a third question: 3) Would Melodyne Editor, AudioSnap or V-Vocal have produced fewer artifacts? If so, which one is best for pitch/time correction of vocals?
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Splat
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Re: Heavy-handed Melodyne-ing?
2014/01/09 09:21:33
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It would be hard to tell without using our ears.
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Kalle Rantaaho
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Re: Heavy-handed Melodyne-ing?
2014/01/09 09:36:33
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☄ Helpfulby rontarrant 2014/01/09 17:36:07
IMO three semitones in vocal correction is not correction anymore, it's either composing or making harmonies :o) I don't know how much better the new Melodyne is than the Plugin version I'm using, but when I've tried to edit the pitch (two or) three semitones I'm forced to edit the formant as well and I find it really hard to keep the result natural. It works quite well in background vocals, but in lead vocal it can inevitably be heard (with my Melodyne-ing skills). Changing instrument pitch is easier, because human ear is so overly sensitive to the details of human voice.
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dubdisciple
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Re: Heavy-handed Melodyne-ing?
2014/01/09 09:57:44
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☄ Helpfulby rontarrant 2014/01/09 17:36:22
When moving that far, best results will be achieved by moving only the vowels. Moving the consonants will create artifacts.
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MarioD
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Re: Heavy-handed Melodyne-ing?
2014/01/09 10:05:21
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☄ Helpfulby rontarrant 2014/01/09 17:37:01
Here is my take on using any pitch correction software. A C note on any instrument, including voice, has a fundamental frequency and added frequencies called partials, sometimes called harmonics. These partials each have different frequencies and volumes. A D note with have a different fundamental frequency, partials and volumes. Thus when you use pitch correction to change a C note to a D note you are also changing C partials to D partials BUT these partials and volumes will not be the same as a natural D note. Thus a C moved to a D will not sound identical to a natural D. Like Kalie posted this may work ok on back ground vocals but not on lead vocals. If I am incorrect on this then someone please let me know – thanx.
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Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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Re: Heavy-handed Melodyne-ing?
2014/01/09 10:22:44
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☄ Helpfulby rontarrant 2014/01/09 17:37:53
Kalle Rantaaho IMO three semitones in vocal correction is not correction anymore, it's either composing or making harmonies :o) I don't know how much better the new Melodyne is than the Plugin version I'm using, but when I've tried to edit the pitch (two or) three semitones I'm forced to edit the formant as well and I find it really hard to keep the result natural. It works quite well in background vocals, but in lead vocal it can inevitably be heard (with my Melodyne-ing skills). Changing instrument pitch is easier, because human ear is so overly sensitive to the details of human voice.
+1 to all of that ... radical melodyne (i.e. more than a few cent!) is good for composing, exploring different vox lines or showing the vocalist where he ought to be aiming at ... lead vocals need to be good and natural - which you will only get with a good performance i.e. record until you nail it and go with the best takes ... minimal corrections only where needed ... backing vox can take a lot of fixing because they just support the lead line and (if mixed properly) blend into the rest of the sonic picture ... and they should not attract attention by being out of tune ... IMHO there is too much fixing going on these days ... listen to some of tracks from the 90s and before; there are some awefully out of tune vocals by great bands, yet the songs sound great cause they feel real ...
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Heavy-handed Melodyne-ing?
2014/01/09 10:26:55
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☄ Helpfulby rontarrant 2014/01/09 17:38:37
Those are usually called formants or harmonics. Melodyne (the full version) lets you adapt formants independently to get a more natural sound. Use the formant tool. I'm with what most of the others said; shifting by that much isn't really pitch correction anymore. Moving just vowels will get you a more natural effect, and experiment with shifting the formants in opposite direction to the fundamental pitch shift. Editing transitions between notes may also help, and don't edit out all the vibrato or pitch drift. V-Vocal in my humble opinion will be mostly worse unless you're a wizard with it. Audiosnap doesn't really do what you want as far as I know.
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stevec
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Re: Heavy-handed Melodyne-ing?
2014/01/09 14:43:29
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^^^^ Pitch alone usually won't cut it when you're moving vocal blobs that far.
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SilkTone
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Re: Heavy-handed Melodyne-ing?
2014/01/09 16:04:18
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☄ Helpfulby rontarrant 2014/01/09 17:40:36
MarioD Here is my take on using any pitch correction software. A C note on any instrument, including voice, has a fundamental frequency and added frequencies called partials, sometimes called harmonics. These partials each have different frequencies and volumes. A D note with have a different fundamental frequency, partials and volumes. Thus when you use pitch correction to change a C note to a D note you are also changing C partials to D partials BUT these partials and volumes will not be the same as a natural D note. Thus a C moved to a D will not sound identical to a natural D. Like Kalie posted this may work ok on back ground vocals but not on lead vocals. If I am incorrect on this then someone please let me know – thanx.
As Sanderxpander mentioned, this is what formant correction is supposed to do. Imagine playing one note on an acoustic guitar. If you now play a different note on that same guitar, then it isn't simply a pitch shift of all frequencies. Instead, the natural resonances of the guitar is still exactly the same, although the new pitch will excite those natural resonances in different intensities. The resonances of the guitar gives it its unique "character". The same thing applies to vocals. Your vocal chords have certain resonances that give you your vocal signature, and naively changing the pitch of those complex resonances will immediately change the character of the voice and make it sound unnatural. So the problem facing pitch correction software is to alter the pitch while preserving this "character" of the sound. This involves analyzing the signal and determining which frequencies are part of the "character" and which are part of the specific "pitch" (or the musical note). The signal is then re-generated with the "character" frequencies at the original frequencies (but maybe altered intensities) while the "pitch" frequencies are adjusted to the new desired pitch. This process is called formant correction. I've done enough of my own pitch detection DSP research and experimentation to know that this is a complex process and my hat is off to any pitch correction software that can do this in a transparent way. Just don't expect realistic results from more than a few half steps though since your own voice will have a different character if you sing notes at significantly different pitches.
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Guitarhacker
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Re: Heavy-handed Melodyne-ing?
2014/01/09 16:08:28
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☼ Best Answerby rontarrant 2014/01/09 17:42:22
Yep....To get a transparent melodyne solution, you have to be very careful. As you move further from the original pitch, the formants also need to change to keep it sounding as natural as possible. The further you are moving the note the more details must be adhered to in order to get acceptable results. If you need to move a note one, to one and a half whole steps, you probably should record it again rather than trying to fix it with melodyne. I certainly would hit the punch in button. You want a track that is as close to perfect as possible (pitch wise) before you start pitch correcting. That way, the moves are less then a half step and even a rushed ME job on that will often turn out totally transparent. Of course, if the singer isn't available anymore..... and this has happened to me..... I used ME to create a vocal harmony track.... and I kept the harmony vocals low in the mix so you hear the harmony but the artifacts are harder to hear.... http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=12024980 Melodyned harmony vox on the prechorus and chorus. Melodyne Editor is a good tool for doing pitch correction. I have it and use it on all my vocal tracks and some instrument tracks as well. My goal is NO ARTIFACTS. If, as I'm working, I introduce an artifact, I undo and go back to the original and work with more care. I find it useful to sometimes split notes up into smaller sections and pitch correct sections individually. Slurs are also troublesome where the singer bends a note.... and I find that is often where I get the robotic auto tuned or un-natural sound. Also... NEVER use the automatic mode. If the track is worth pitch correcting, it's worth taking the time to do it manually. Manual takes longer but yields better results.
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rontarrant
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Re: Heavy-handed Melodyne-ing?
2014/01/09 18:17:03
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Thanks, everyone, for all these replies. A lot to process here.
-Ron T. ---------------------------------------------------------- MSI GE72 2QF-247US, 12 gb, Focusrite 6i6, AT-2020 ---------------------------------------------------------- Windows 10 x64, Sonar Platinum
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konradh
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Re: Heavy-handed Melodyne-ing?
2014/01/09 18:22:04
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☄ Helpfulby rontarrant 2014/01/09 19:07:20
A step and a half is a large move. Also--and I don't know if you did this--using too much Variation tool (the thing that looks like a triangle wave) or too much of the pitch drift tool can affect the sound; and sometimes, oddly, the effect is most noticeable on the note following the one edited. I am a heavy Melodyne user but I don't move pitches that far. I always record more than one vocal track so I can copy a section over if I have to move a note too far. Also, I take the best chorus in Melodyne and paste it into all the chorus slots. (There is a trick to this if you need to know it.) If a note has a lot of slope, I sometimes do one or both of the following: - Split the note after the slope so I can pitch-center the main part of the note. - Use some judgment to center the note so that its average pitch sounds right. For example, if a note bends up and down and you center it right on pitch, it will sound off-key. About formant, as much as I love Melodyne, I have had better results with the V-Vocal formant tool than with the one in Melodyne. On the other hand, V-Vocal needs formant adjustment more often than Melodyne. So, I seldom mess with formant in Melodyne. If I need to, usually the pitch has been moved way too far.
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rontarrant
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Re: Heavy-handed Melodyne-ing?
2014/01/09 19:07:49
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Thanks, Konrad. That fills in a few blanks.
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stevec
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Re: Heavy-handed Melodyne-ing?
2014/01/09 22:56:39
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konradh - Use some judgment to center the note so that its average pitch sounds right. For example, if a note bends up and down and you center it right on pitch, it will sound off-key.
This is an important one if you're working on pitch correction and want the "best" results - centering blob position on the pitch grid often isn't the best option.
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rontarrant
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Re: Heavy-handed Melodyne-ing?
2014/01/10 05:12:59
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konradhIf a note has a lot of slope I was re-reading this thread and making notes when I noticed this statement and got to wondering what 'slope' is. Are you referring to what Eli Krantzberg, in his Melodyne Explained videos, calls 'pitch drift?'
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Guitarhacker
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Re: Heavy-handed Melodyne-ing?
2014/01/10 12:37:26
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I too, do not use the formant tool. If I can't move the note transparently, it's time for a punch recording. Something else I have started doing now on almost every vocal song.... I record the vocal as perfectly as possible and do it in 3 unique tracks/takes. I melodyne one of them and call it the main vocal. If I run into a glitch of sorts, I have 2 other tracks available and some times there's just enough of a difference, or I sang that one slightly better so I can cut and paste the part as needed. But after I have a finished main vocal track I use the other 2 lead vocal tracks as well. I lower them to -16db to -22db or so, pan them widely opposite and don't pitch fix them on purpose. This gives a slight widening and a fatter sound to the main vocal with the subtle differences in timing and pitch. The other 2 tracks are only audible when the vocal bus is in solo mode. In the mix, technically, they are still there, but covered by the instruments. The vocal just sounds a bit "larger".
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rontarrant
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Re: Heavy-handed Melodyne-ing?
2014/01/11 18:51:16
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Guitarhacker I too, do not use the formant tool. If I can't move the note transparently, it's time for a punch recording. Something else I have started doing now on almost every vocal song.... I record the vocal as perfectly as possible and do it in 3 unique tracks/takes. I melodyne one of them and call it the main vocal. If I run into a glitch of sorts, I have 2 other tracks available and some times there's just enough of a difference, or I sang that one slightly better so I can cut and paste the part as needed. But after I have a finished main vocal track I use the other 2 lead vocal tracks as well. I lower them to -16db to -22db or so, pan them widely opposite and don't pitch fix them on purpose. This gives a slight widening and a fatter sound to the main vocal with the subtle differences in timing and pitch. The other 2 tracks are only audible when the vocal bus is in solo mode. In the mix, technically, they are still there, but covered by the instruments. The vocal just sounds a bit "larger".
Interesting technique. Very interesting. I must give that a try sometime. When I'm recording vocals, I usually try for three acceptable takes. That is: three takes I think are good enough to do the job. I do that for each vocal part (I almost always do the back-up vocals as well). And since I almost always do two back-up parts, I end up with three-part harmony comprised of nine complete and usable takes. So, following your technique shouldn't be a problem. Thanks for passing that along, Guitarhacker.
-Ron T. ---------------------------------------------------------- MSI GE72 2QF-247US, 12 gb, Focusrite 6i6, AT-2020 ---------------------------------------------------------- Windows 10 x64, Sonar Platinum
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