Undoing a synth rack deletion routes track to wrong synth.

Author
sharke
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 13933
  • Joined: 8/3/2012
  • Location: NYC
  • Status: offline
January 08, 14 1:12 AM (permalink)

Undoing a synth rack deletion routes track to wrong synth.

I still find the synth rack to be a little buggy and unstable - I've had some bad crashes from turning synths on and off, and tonight I had the weirdest thing happen which had me scratching my head for ages. 
 
I was doing some house cleaning in the rack and deleting unused synths and their related tracks. In the course of this, I accidentally deleted an instance of Kontakt along with its related tracks. Immediately realizing what I'd done, I undid the action. And what happened was this: Sonar restored the tracks and the synth, but it routed both the MIDI track and the audio track to a different synth - an instance of Reaktor. 
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but when you delete a synth and it's associated tracks and then undo that action, you should get back to where you were, no? The tracks should be routed to the same synth. 
 
I could half understand what was happening if the tracks were routed to the first synth in the rack when I undid the deletion, as a kind of "default" routing. But the synth they were routed to is #8 in the list. It just seems so random and arbitrary. As an experiment I tried deleting another synth with its tracks and undoing it - lo and behold the tracks were routed to the same instance of Reaktor as well. Has anyone else experienced this? Is it a bug? I'm going to try and reproduce it in a fresh project. 

James
Windows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
#1

16 Replies Related Threads

    sharke
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 13933
    • Joined: 8/3/2012
    • Location: NYC
    • Status: offline
    Re: Undoing a synth rack deletion routes track to wrong synth. January 08, 14 1:24 AM (permalink)
    So I've been able to recreate this in a fresh project. I haven't narrowed it down to a formula yet, but I'm getting there...

    James
    Windows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
    #2
    sharke
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 13933
    • Joined: 8/3/2012
    • Location: NYC
    • Status: offline
    Re: Undoing a synth rack deletion routes track to wrong synth. January 08, 14 1:42 AM (permalink)
    OK so here's the recipe if anyone wants to check it out to see what I mean:
     
    1) Insert two synths with associated audio/MIDI tracks. For the purposes of this recipe, I used SI-Bass and SI-Electric Piano. 
    2) In the synth rack, delete the first synth (in this case SI-Bass) and its associate tracks.
    3) Undo this action
     
    The deleted synth and its tracks reappear, but the tracks are routed to the other synth (in this case SI-Electric Piano). Anyone else?

    James
    Windows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
    #3
    Jekyll Vance
    Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 50
    • Joined: 10/7/2010
    • Status: offline
    Re: Undoing a synth rack deletion routes track to wrong synth. January 08, 14 4:43 AM (permalink)
    I confirm. The bug is probably connected with instrument tracks. When I use separate midi+audio tracks for synth everything works normally.
    #4
    icontakt
    Max Output Level: -32.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 4266
    • Joined: 3/4/2012
    • Location: Tokyo
    • Status: offline
    Re: Undoing a synth rack deletion routes track to wrong synth. January 08, 14 7:57 AM (permalink)
    Confirmed. This is because undo doesn't restore the order of the list in the output field correctly, isn't it?

    Tak T.
     
    Primary Laptop: Core i7-4710MQ CPU, 16GB RAM, 7200RPM HDD, Windows 7 Home Premium OS (Japanese) x64 SP1
    Secondary Laptop: Core2 Duo CPU, 8GB RAM, 7200RPM HDD, Windows 7 Professional OS (Japanese) x64 SP1
    Audio Interface: iD14 (ASIO)
    Keyboard Controller/MIDI Interface: A-800PRO
    DAW: SONAR Platinum x64 (latest update installed)
    #5
    bitflipper
    01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
    • Total Posts : 26036
    • Joined: 9/17/2006
    • Location: Everett, WA USA
    • Status: offline
    Re: Undoing a synth rack deletion routes track to wrong synth. January 08, 14 11:14 AM (permalink)
    Seems like an unreasonable expectation, sharke.
     
    Here's my rationale, although it's admittedly conjecture:
     
    When you delete a synth, you unload it completely. When you subsequently undo the deletion, you're actually re-inserting the synth and repeating all the behind-the-scenes stuff that implies. The synth is now a brand-new instance with no knowledge of its previous incarnation. The track, meanwhile, has no way of knowing that this new synth is a suitable substitute for the one it used to connect to. Although the new synth instance looks the same to you, it's doesn't look the same internally, where it's identified by an instance ID that's different from the original installation.
     
    BTW, I've done exactly the same thing myself many times, accidentally deleting the wrong synth. That's why before starting any housekeeping (including deleting tracks or unused effects) the first step is to save the project. If, during the course of cleaning up, I make a boo-boo, I don't rely on Undo to save me. Instead, I close the project without saving and re-open it. Never fails, and has the added benefit of wiping out the undo history so I don't accidentally undo too far back - I've done that, too.
     


    All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

    My Stuff
    #6
    sharke
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 13933
    • Joined: 8/3/2012
    • Location: NYC
    • Status: offline
    Re: Undoing a synth rack deletion routes track to wrong synth. January 08, 14 11:31 AM (permalink)
    Jekyll Vance
    I confirm. The bug is probably connected with instrument tracks. When I use separate midi+audio tracks for synth everything works normally.


    It's not limited to instrument tracks at my end. However, it does seem to be related to the position of the synth in the rack in a way that I haven't yet explored. For instance, in my recipe above if you delete and undo the second synth, it works properly.

    James
    Windows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
    #7
    sharke
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 13933
    • Joined: 8/3/2012
    • Location: NYC
    • Status: offline
    Re: Undoing a synth rack deletion routes track to wrong synth. January 08, 14 11:36 AM (permalink)
    bitflipper
    Seems like an unreasonable expectation, sharke.
     
    Here's my rationale, although it's admittedly conjecture:
     
    When you delete a synth, you unload it completely. When you subsequently undo the deletion, you're actually re-inserting the synth and repeating all the behind-the-scenes stuff that implies. The synth is now a brand-new instance with no knowledge of its previous incarnation. The track, meanwhile, has no way of knowing that this new synth is a suitable substitute for the one it used to connect to. Although the new synth instance looks the same to you, it's doesn't look the same internally, where it's identified by an instance ID that's different from the original installation.
     
    BTW, I've done exactly the same thing myself many times, accidentally deleting the wrong synth. That's why before starting any housekeeping (including deleting tracks or unused effects) the first step is to save the project. If, during the course of cleaning up, I make a boo-boo, I don't rely on Undo to save me. Instead, I close the project without saving and re-open it. Never fails, and has the added benefit of wiping out the undo history so I don't accidentally undo too far back - I've done that, too.
     


    I totally get where you're coming from regarding a new instance of the synth with a new ID etc, but when you delete a synth in the rack and have "remove associated tracks" checked in the dialog, the synth deletion and the track deletions count as one undo action. To me, it seems reasonable to assume that making that undo should both restore the synth and the tracks along with the same output routing as before.

    James
    Windows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
    #8
    SilkTone
    Max Output Level: -59.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 1566
    • Joined: 11/10/2003
    • Status: offline
    Re: Undoing a synth rack deletion routes track to wrong synth. January 08, 14 11:50 AM (permalink)
    There is no reason why the synth state should not be part of the undo/redo logic (it is just a blob of binary data to the host). Therefore deleting a synth and all of its associated tracks and then undoing should work as expected. The host should restore the synth state from the binary blob saved in the undo/redo stack, and also be able to restore all off the original routing.
     
    When you load an existing project, the exact same thing happens: The host loads new instances of all plugins in the project and then sets their state from the binary blobs that were also saved in the project file.
     
    I see no reason why delete/undo cannot work as expected. This is definitely a bug.

    Windows 10 Pro x64, SONAR Platinum 64-bit
    Focusrite Scarlett 18i8 USB, ASRock Z97 Pro4, Haswell 4790k @ 4.4GHz
    32GB DDR3/1600, 500GB SSD (OS) + 256 GB SSD + 3TB MD
    NVIDIA GTX-1070, 40" 4K Monitor + 1 Monitor in ISO booth
    #9
    sharke
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 13933
    • Joined: 8/3/2012
    • Location: NYC
    • Status: offline
    Re: Undoing a synth rack deletion routes track to wrong synth. January 08, 14 1:46 PM (permalink)
    Hmm...I'd like to hear Cake's take on this. I have a feeling they'd class it as a "limitation" rather than a bug. To me though, it's a bug because something's not working as reasonably expected. Undo should do just that - undo. I can't find anywhere in the manual that says anything about a synth/track deletion undo not preserving the original routing. 

    James
    Windows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
    #10
    mettelus
    Max Output Level: -22 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 5321
    • Joined: 8/5/2005
    • Location: Maryland, USA
    • Status: offline
    Re: Undoing a synth rack deletion routes track to wrong synth. January 08, 14 4:09 PM (permalink)
    For better or worse, I have adopted the habit over the years of saving projects in stages (with descriptive names) and have inherent distrust in every scenario being tried/tested in development. Prior to major changes (especially destructive ones), I will save just in case, then can just close the project without a save and reopen it.
     
    I realize this may rub some the wrong way, but reliance on "bug free" software (anywhere) is folly.
     
     

    ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero (Wi-Fi AC), i7-8700k, 16GB RAM, GTX-1070Ti, Win 10 Pro, Saffire PRO 24 DSP, A-300 PRO, plus numerous gadgets and gizmos that make or manipulate sound in some way.
    #11
    icontakt
    Max Output Level: -32.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 4266
    • Joined: 3/4/2012
    • Location: Tokyo
    • Status: offline
    Re: Undoing a synth rack deletion routes track to wrong synth. January 08, 14 6:07 PM (permalink)
    I'd report it to CW through the proper channel if I were you.

    Tak T.
     
    Primary Laptop: Core i7-4710MQ CPU, 16GB RAM, 7200RPM HDD, Windows 7 Home Premium OS (Japanese) x64 SP1
    Secondary Laptop: Core2 Duo CPU, 8GB RAM, 7200RPM HDD, Windows 7 Professional OS (Japanese) x64 SP1
    Audio Interface: iD14 (ASIO)
    Keyboard Controller/MIDI Interface: A-800PRO
    DAW: SONAR Platinum x64 (latest update installed)
    #12
    rebel007
    Max Output Level: -72 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 926
    • Joined: 7/17/2013
    • Location: Victoria, Australia
    • Status: offline
    Re: Undoing a synth rack deletion routes track to wrong synth. January 13, 14 7:34 AM (permalink)
    I think it's reasonable to assume that an "undo delete synth" command would put the track back the way it was. Are there other things that won't "undo"? I can't remember reading about it in the manual, or seeing it in any of the tutorial videos about the synth rack that I've watched.
    Guess you will have to be a little more careful about synth deletion in the future sharke, certainly until Cakewalk can fix the issue. Or if they don't/can't, then a change of workflow is the only option.
    Thanks for posting this, it's something I can at least understand when and if it happens to me.

    Home Built Desktop Computer: Intel Core i5 750: 4Mb RAM: NVidia 210 Silent: Windows 10 32bit: Sonar Platinum: Roland OctaCapture
    Presario CQ41 Laptop: Intel Core i5 760: 4Mb RAM: Windows 10 32bit: Sonar Platinum (Retired)
    CbB on HP Pavilion Laptop 64bit: GeForce Video Card: Intel 8550: 256GB SSD 1TB Data Drive: Windows10 64bit
    #13
    rebel007
    Max Output Level: -72 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 926
    • Joined: 7/17/2013
    • Location: Victoria, Australia
    • Status: offline
    Re: Undoing a synth rack deletion routes track to wrong synth. January 13, 14 7:34 AM (permalink)
    Double post sorry.

    Home Built Desktop Computer: Intel Core i5 750: 4Mb RAM: NVidia 210 Silent: Windows 10 32bit: Sonar Platinum: Roland OctaCapture
    Presario CQ41 Laptop: Intel Core i5 760: 4Mb RAM: Windows 10 32bit: Sonar Platinum (Retired)
    CbB on HP Pavilion Laptop 64bit: GeForce Video Card: Intel 8550: 256GB SSD 1TB Data Drive: Windows10 64bit
    #14
    Splat
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 8672
    • Joined: 12/29/2010
    • Location: Mars.
    • Status: offline
    Re: Undoing a synth rack deletion routes track to wrong synth. January 13, 14 8:44 AM (permalink)
    My view it's a bug and should be reported via cake problem reporter (please let us know the number).,Why is it a bug? Because undo does not undo correctly. If it was incapable it should not undo at all or it should produce a warning telling the user that it won't fully undo.

    Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed.
    @48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38.

    Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5.Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1.Addictive Keys,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist.Acronis True Image 2014.
    #15
    sharke
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 13933
    • Joined: 8/3/2012
    • Location: NYC
    • Status: offline
    Re: Undoing a synth rack deletion routes track to wrong synth. January 14, 14 2:38 PM (permalink)
    Cake are apparently aware of the problem. So we can only assume that it will be addressed in a future update. 

    James
    Windows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
    #16
    Splat
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 8672
    • Joined: 12/29/2010
    • Location: Mars.
    • Status: offline
    Re: Undoing a synth rack deletion routes track to wrong synth. January 15, 14 4:30 AM (permalink)
    So from the sound of it that means it's being regarded as a feature request as we have no problem reporter number.

    Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed.
    @48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38.

    Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5.Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1.Addictive Keys,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist.Acronis True Image 2014.
    #17
    Jump to:
    © 2025 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.1