Soft Enerji
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Low level stems.....should I normalize?
Howdy folks I've been sent the stems of a friend's track for a remix project. After loading the stems into X3 Producer I noticed that there was very little wave profile and levels were peaking at maybe a max of -12db. I've done a bit of googling on normalizing and from what I can see I should be able to do that without compromising the audio. Being a bit cautious I'm thinking of normalizing to -5db rather than 0db. I quickly tried that on a couple of tracks within the project and the wave profile is certainly much more visible and I'm didn't blow my monitors :). I didn't save anything at that point and I'm wondering if anyone here has any thoughts on the matter. Just a note on the stems. It's not going to be an easy job for my friend to redo them so I'm hoping that normalizing will be the answer.
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John
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Re: Low level stems.....should I normalize?
2014/01/23 19:23:25
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Are you mixing or what? Are the wave files in 24 bit or greater? What sort of music is it? And what are the instruments? Has any FX been added? What is the RMS dB value? I would do the processing that you think is needed and go from there. I would only normalize if that was the only way to get the final levels I wanted.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Low level stems.....should I normalize?
2014/01/23 19:24:57
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The first question will be: What bit depth did he send you? 2nd: How many stems are you going to sum? 3rd: Have you tried summing all the sends to see how the levels stack up to see if you really need to normalize them before mixing?
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John
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Re: Low level stems.....should I normalize?
2014/01/23 19:29:41
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☄ Helpfulby bapu 2014/01/23 19:35:49
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gswitz
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Re: Low level stems.....should I normalize?
2014/01/23 19:54:26
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☄ Helpfulby Soft Enerji 2014/01/23 20:17:59
There are a couple of useful tricks for working with low levels - Gain nob - seems obvious but sometimes people forget. It works great. Can't be automated. Pretty much the same as normalizeing in a lot of ways. - when in track view and drop down is set to 'Clips' on the track header, you can click in the gray divider and drag up and down to increase the size of the wave form so you can see the wave form better for quiet parts of the track - Normalize... Normalizing to a particular level for a particular tune is a bit like setting the gain in a way that sticks. In other words, say you have a recording of 20 songs in a single project and each song needs separate gain settings. Instead of using the gain nob, you can normalize the audio and thereby control the gain into the fx sends for each song in a way that is remembered over time. If you use the gain nob on one tune, then alter it for the next tune, then go back to the first, you will need to reset the gain nob on the first tune. Can you remember where it was set? If you use normalization, you will not need to reset when you return to an earlier tune.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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Lynn
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Re: Low level stems.....should I normalize?
2014/01/23 20:07:45
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If you do normalize, make a backup copy of the file before normalizing or any other destructive editing.
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Soft Enerji
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Re: Low level stems.....should I normalize?
2014/01/23 20:17:30
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John Are you mixing or what? Are the wave files in 24 bit or greater? What sort of music is it? And what are the instruments? Has any FX been added? What is the RMS dB value? I would do the processing that you think is needed and go from there. I would only normalize if that was the only way to get the final levels I wanted.
Remixing. 24bit. Sort of folky dub. Drums, percussion, bass, guitars, synths, the usual suspects. Stems are dry to allow further processing. As mentioned the highest peak was about -12db. mike_mccue The first question will be: What bit depth did he send you? 2nd: How many stems are you going to sum? 3rd: Have you tried summing all the sends to see how the levels stack up to see if you really need to normalize them before mixing?
1. 24bit 2. I'm at work, but from memory would be about 18-20 3. With everything at unity gain everything does sound fine but the master level was definitely lower than I would normally mix to. John I must be blocked. LOL
Why? gswitz There are a couple of useful tricks for working with low levels - Gain nob - seems obvious but sometimes people forget. It works great. Can't be automated. Pretty much the same as normalizeing in a lot of ways. - when in track view and drop down is set to 'Clips' on the track header, you can click in the gray divider and drag up and down to increase the size of the wave form so you can see the wave form better for quiet parts of the track - Normalize... Normalizing to a particular level for a particular tune is a bit like setting the gain in a way that sticks. In other words, say you have a recording of 20 songs in a single project and each song needs separate gain settings. Instead of using the gain nob, you can normalize the audio and thereby control the gain into the fx sends for each song in a way that is remembered over time. If you use the gain nob on one tune, then alter it for the next tune, then go back to the first, you will need to reset the gain nob on the first tune. Can you remember where it was set? If you use normalization, you will not need to reset when you return to an earlier tune.
Thanks gswitz, thats really helpful. I'm still getting my head around Sonar so if people oftem forget about the gain nob I'd not have had much chance of using it. And I tried to find a way to increase the size of the waveform but obviously missed the trick. I really didn't want to normalize at all so I'll follow your gain nob approach. Thanks again. Cheers Mark
post edited by Soft Enerji - 2014/01/23 20:41:25
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Soft Enerji
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Re: Low level stems.....should I normalize?
2014/01/23 20:18:46
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Lynn If you do normalize, make a backup copy of the file before normalizing or any other destructive editing.
Thanks Lynn, I was only going to normalize within X3 so the original files will still be as supplied. Looks like I have the solution now though.
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jb101
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Re: Low level stems.....should I normalize?
2014/01/23 20:18:55
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John I must be blocked. LOL
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gswitz
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Re: Low level stems.....should I normalize?
2014/01/23 20:57:28
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☼ Best Answerby Soft Enerji 2014/01/23 21:57:14
You guys are crazy (not you Soft Enerji). Ok, for more info on audio wave form scaling see this help file... http://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation/default.aspx?Doc=SONAR%20X2&Lang=EN&Req=EditingAudio.13.html So... reasons for using gain or normalization can include 'gain staging' http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep13/articles/level-headed.htm Gain staging is really the main reason to use the 'Gain' nob, thus the name. :-) You can bring up the levels into your FX and etc so you can mix well. Keep in mind that you also have Gain nobs on busses and they can be turned down as easily as up. If you are clipping slightly on the master bus, you can turn down the master bus gain a little to solve your problem, rather than re-setting the levels of all 100 tracks individually. Normalization has less justification, imho. As I described in my post, if you are doing gain staging that you want to stick, you might try auditioning the tracks dialing in gain and then apply normalization to stick that gain permanently to that tune. (specifically, listen to the track noting the loudest moment during the tune when the gain is set where you want it. If the loudest moment is -2.5, then normalize to -2.5 and remove gain adjustment). Then you can set gain back to 0 and if you return to that section of the recording, you're good to go. This only applies if you try mixing multi-track recorded concerts in an efficient manner where your goal is just to bounce out that tracks and you don't plan to spend a ton of time on it. If you are going to really polish each track, you're better off breaking each track into separate projects. I have a video in my signature walking you through some of these ideas in a way that I think of it. If you are only mixing one song per project... your friend's stems only apply to a single song... then you probably don't really need to normalize anything. Keep in mind that you don't have to normalize so that every available bit is used during the loudest moment of the selection. You can normalize to -3 dB or any other amount you choose. Cakewalk FX (and others) often emulate real hardware... thus, they permit you to overdrive the hardware, just as you could in real life hardware. For that reason, you don't usually want to normalize to 0 (as loud as it will go). If you do, you will send the loudest possible signal into your compressors or EQs or whatever and they may distort for you on purpose... like that's what you want!! So back off a little. Use the gain nobs and listen to what you get back from the compressors and EQs and etc.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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Soft Enerji
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Re: Low level stems.....should I normalize?
2014/01/23 22:00:36
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Thanks again gswitz, I really appreciate your help and this makes a lot of sense!
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Low level stems.....should I normalize?
2014/01/24 04:52:09
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The levels are a bit low perhaps but at 24 bit you should be fine. Even if you don't make things worse by normalizing, you certainly won't make it better, only louder. The gain knob sounds like the best solution. As long as you can get good levels for mixing, you're good to go!
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RobMc
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Re: Low level stems.....should I normalize?
2014/01/24 05:10:17
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Gain would be the first thing I'd look at myself.
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Soft Enerji
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Re: Low level stems.....should I normalize?
2014/01/24 06:31:49
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☄ Helpfulby mike_mccue 2014/01/24 07:05:05
Sanderxpander The levels are a bit low perhaps but at 24 bit you should be fine. Even if you don't make things worse by normalizing, you certainly won't make it better, only louder. The gain knob sounds like the best solution. As long as you can get good levels for mixing, you're good to go!
Yeah the whole normalizing thing didn't sit well with me at all, and now I'm looking at the console on my 2nd screen, I'm thinking..........why the feck didn't I think of the gain knob.............D'oh! I used it all the time in Reason/Record/Reason7 but completely missed it with Sonar. I really appreciate the help from you guys..........I'm getting there :) RobMc Gain would be the first thing I'd look at myself.
As above :) Thanks again guys!
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Low level stems.....should I normalize?
2014/01/24 07:25:36
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1) 24bit: Good news. There should still be lots of useful data in the files so turning up the level will probably not hurt the quality in a noticeable way. 2) 18-20 tracks: Good news. If it was only 4 or 5 tracks it may not have enough energy to sum to a useful level without having to get aggressive with a level boost. 3) With everything at unity gain everything does sound fine: Good news. With 18-20 tracks summed at unity it probably peaks pretty close to *insertmagicnumber*dBFS and that means that just about any way you adjust the levels will work out ok. Where I was going with my questions was in preparation to explain that if you "normalize" to some louder level you'll probably end up turning stuff down instead of turning stuff up and that you might find that it is just as easy to simply turn up what you need to turn up. If you did find that you were turning stuff down after "normalizing" to some high level then some might point out that you can lose a little bit of sound quality. With 18-20 tracks in the mix it is probably not something anyone could actually notice with their ears. I think Geoff explained your options very well. :-) My opinion is just mix it. Use the trim and level knobs like they are supposed to be used, and don't forget that you have clip levels available as well. best regards, mike
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gswitz
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Re: Low level stems.....should I normalize?
2014/01/24 07:39:44
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mike_mccue I think Geoff explained your options very well. :-) Thanks, Mike!! I have great teachers!!
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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Soft Enerji
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Re: Low level stems.....should I normalize?
2014/01/24 21:24:46
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mike_mccue 1) 24bit: Good news. There should still be lots of useful data in the files so turning up the level will probably not hurt the quality in a noticeable way. 2) 18-20 tracks: Good news. If it was only 4 or 5 tracks it may not have enough energy to sum to a useful level without having to get aggressive with a level boost. 3) With everything at unity gain everything does sound fine: Good news. With 18-20 tracks summed at unity it probably peaks pretty close to *insertmagicnumber*dBFS and that means that just about any way you adjust the levels will work out ok. Where I was going with my questions was in preparation to explain that if you "normalize" to some louder level you'll probably end up turning stuff down instead of turning stuff up and that you might find that it is just as easy to simply turn up what you need to turn up. If you did find that you were turning stuff down after "normalizing" to some high level then some might point out that you can lose a little bit of sound quality. With 18-20 tracks in the mix it is probably not something anyone could actually notice with their ears. I think Geoff explained your options very well. :-) My opinion is just mix it. Use the trim and level knobs like they are supposed to be used, and don't forget that you have clip levels available as well. best regards, mike
I like good news :) I started on the project today and things are going along nicely. I'm finding that some tracks don't need much more gain at all and I'm pulling back on others once I apply compression, eq etc. And I'm having a blast with Melodyne Editor :) Thanks again for the input on this folks. Cheers Mark
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Guitarhacker
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Re: Low level stems.....should I normalize?
2014/01/25 08:33:09
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☄ Helpfulby Soft Enerji 2014/01/25 16:35:33
keep in mind, you do not need to normalize to 100%. You can always select a level less than the 100% normalize. I would only normalize a track if there were no other ways to get it to set in the mix properly. Instead of looking at the wave...listen to it. Now ask yourself if it sounds OK or is it in fact much too low to work with in the mix. If it is simply too low (bad recording job or whatever) try normalizing up but not to the 100% level. More than one time, a weak looking wave track sounded just fine in the mix. Depends a lot on the instrument and the genre. If it works with that low level weak looking wave, don't normalize it just to be normalizing it. You accomplish nothing. If you normalize it up, and then have to pull the faders down to compensate..... what have you accomplished? Remember that normalizing will also raise the noise levels as well as the music. Giving the wave a small 25% bump up above it's current levels may be more than enough to do the job. My goal in normalizing is as described above and the evidence to me that I did it right is that my faders are in the nominal range from -0 to -10 or so...... if I have to pull them down further, I probably normalized too much. If I have to go above -0, I need to have another look at that track and figure out why I'm needing to run that high. but that's just me and how I do it.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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Soft Enerji
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Re: Low level stems.....should I normalize?
2014/01/25 18:38:38
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Guitarhacker keep in mind, you do not need to normalize to 100%. You can always select a level less than the 100% normalize. I would only normalize a track if there were no other ways to get it to set in the mix properly. Instead of looking at the wave...listen to it. Now ask yourself if it sounds OK or is it in fact much too low to work with in the mix. If it is simply too low (bad recording job or whatever) try normalizing up but not to the 100% level. More than one time, a weak looking wave track sounded just fine in the mix. Depends a lot on the instrument and the genre. If it works with that low level weak looking wave, don't normalize it just to be normalizing it. You accomplish nothing. If you normalize it up, and then have to pull the faders down to compensate..... what have you accomplished? Remember that normalizing will also raise the noise levels as well as the music. Giving the wave a small 25% bump up above it's current levels may be more than enough to do the job. My goal in normalizing is as described above and the evidence to me that I did it right is that my faders are in the nominal range from -0 to -10 or so...... if I have to pull them down further, I probably normalized too much. If I have to go above -0, I need to have another look at that track and figure out why I'm needing to run that high. but that's just me and how I do it.
Yeah, my original thought on normalizing was to go to about -5db but so far I've been able to work with the stems by increasing the gain which makes perfect sense given that the gain knob is there in the first place. Thanks for your input though, yet more great info from this forum.
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