Helpful ReplyHard Drive Heart Attack!!!!

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R3V3RB
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2014/01/24 23:01:40 (permalink)

Hard Drive Heart Attack!!!!

Hello guys, Happy new year to you all.
I frequent this forum just about every day, although I end up hardly ever posting, usually because if I have a problem it's already answered, or if someone posts a problem I know the answer to, that's already been done by someone (or everyone!) here, and usually in a more understandable and 'straight to the point' approach than I could ever accomplish!!
There is an unquantifiable yet very real character to the cake forum that exists almost as a buss output, of which you all make the sum of its parts.
Anyway, for anyone still reading, as the title suggests, I powered up today and got a blue screen on bootup. I nearly died there and then because with all the great offers on music software over the holiday season, cake included of course, I've spent a small, actually not so small, fortune on download applications. Luckily it booted ok on retry, but I always see blue screens as a warning!
I would just like to ask, does anyone know of a backup method I could use before my life is destroyed in a haze of blue light?
I have other drives and things, and have procrastinated thus far about properly backing up. But it got me wondering whether I can simply back up the entire drive somehow?
cheers!
#1
Vab
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Re: Hard Drive Heart Attack!!!! 2014/01/24 23:05:41 (permalink)
I always have 2 hard drives. One backs up the other in case of failure, and all my important stuff is backed up to both.

Have you ran a SMART test to confirm that its definitely a HDD that's the problem? What does the blue screen actually say for the error message?

Blue screens don't necessarily mean there's anything faulty, they can be caused by drivers, or incorrect hardware settings and most are easy to fix.

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#2
overkiller
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Re: Hard Drive Heart Attack!!!! 2014/01/24 23:07:32 (permalink)
Windows 7 has a built in back up utility that is reliable.  I backup to an external USB hard drive using the built in windows backup.  I also select "create a drive image" with my backup.  I have used this method to essentially clone my drive so that I can install a new drive and recover my whole computer.  I went from a 120GB SSD to a 256GB SSD and restored my saved drive image using the built in windows 7 backup tools.
 
I copy my project files to an external drive and backup my computer (with drive image) daily on another external drive.  I would have to lose three drives for me to have an unrecoverable problem this way.
 
You can also install or use an internal drive(s) for this purpose instead of or in addition to external drives.  I use external drives because that's just what I had.  Ideally I'd use my SSD as my main drive and a HDD internally as my backup drive with my projects folders and files copied to an external drive as needed.
 
You could also spend more money and setup and install a RAID drive system.  I chose to use external drives instead of a more expensive and complicated RAID system.  But for heavy duty drive performance and reliability, RAID is the way to go.

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#3
noynekker
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Re: Hard Drive Heart Attack!!!! 2014/01/24 23:11:37 (permalink)
Hopefully you're using "per project folders" with your projects . . . so you just copy those to an external drive for project back-ups (project file and audio data) . . . but backing up your whole system drive is another matter, and perhaps you need to look at some back-up software like Acronis to do a system image. If you're at the stage of blue screens, it may be too late for a system image. I'm sure someone on the forum with more knowledge of this will offer some help with this. Blue screens are usually symptomatic of a hardware issue.

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#4
R3V3RB
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Re: Hard Drive Heart Attack!!!! 2014/01/24 23:17:24 (permalink)
Hey guys,
Thanks for the quick answers. Vab, good to hear that bsod's don't always signify absolute trouble. I forgot to  mention that the os and sonar etc are on an SSD. I have some past expierience with mech drives, a fair bit actually, but seeing an ssd do this has put me on red alert! Overkiller, I set the system to back up nothing when I first got it, although if win 7 has a way of mirroring the entire drive I need to look into that asap!
#5
R3V3RB
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Re: Hard Drive Heart Attack!!!! 2014/01/24 23:19:29 (permalink)
noynekker, thank for the reply. I think you share my thoughts of taking this as an 'abandon ship' warning!
#6
R3V3RB
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Re: Hard Drive Heart Attack!!!! 2014/01/24 23:23:50 (permalink)
With mech drives I used to roll my eyes to the sky when this happened and alway felt 85-90% sure I'd get it back, and most of the time I managed to. But with an ssd, I'm not really expierienced or knowledgeable about them as hardware entities and thus my sudden run into the arms of cake forum!
#7
noynekker
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Re: Hard Drive Heart Attack!!!! 2014/01/24 23:24:16 (permalink)
Yes . . . Control Panel\System and Security\Backup and Restore . . . create a system image (to an external drive) is  a back-up method I use . . . but never had to restore yet ! (here's hoping) . . . that's why I suggested Acronis, because I have cloned an Sata drive and had it work flawlessly . . . cloning SSD drives is trickier, you will have some reading to do.

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#8
R3V3RB
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Re: Hard Drive Heart Attack!!!! 2014/01/24 23:39:14 (permalink)
Thanks noyekker!!
 Cheers everybody, from these answers alone I've got enough info to be going on with already.
The win native backup sounds interesting as does Acronis.
Feeling a lot less panicky now! It's taken literally 2 years to get my system running so well. Took the same amount of time with the last one, then it all blew up in 2010! Totally loving the drama of being a Sonar producer owner tho!
Never got Logic because I wanted a power PC, but just recently I'm wondering whether I've been in the right boat all along. The press seem to be buzzing with that sentiment lately!
#9
Vab
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Re: Hard Drive Heart Attack!!!! 2014/01/24 23:56:45 (permalink)
Sonar is great and works well with a high end gaming PC.
I just impulse bought sonar after seeing the recent upgrade offers. Don't regret it at all, it works wonderfully and dkes everything I need.

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#10
Splat
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Re: Hard Drive Heart Attack!!!! 2014/01/25 04:17:33 (permalink)
+1 Acronis True Image 2014. Get yourself a nice USB external hard drive just for backups or a NAS if you want to network your backups.
 
A non destructive warning (or even a false positive warning) is nevertheless a good prompt to get your backup strategy in order. Cheers.

Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed.
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#11
markyzno
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Re: Hard Drive Heart Attack!!!! 2014/01/25 05:32:53 (permalink)
Also worth noting that sometimes, if its a hard drive failure, you'll get the "clicks of death" as you boot up. i.e you'll hear the HD trying to work but like a broken groove in a record gets stuck....Not sure if this is the case with SSDs but they RARELY go down anyway.... So, if you havent got that and your master boot record isnt trashed (which can be fixed) then as another Poster has noted, it really could be a config change brought about by a driver update, new software/hardware or a windows update.
 
Have you tried going into safe mode and running a system restore?

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#12
mettelus
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Re: Hard Drive Heart Attack!!!! 2014/01/25 08:13:19 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby markyzno 2014/01/25 09:12:04
R3V3RB
I have other drives and things, and have procrastinated thus far about properly backing up. But it got me wondering whether I can simply back up the entire drive somehow?

I will section this, as I am typing it this is already getting longer, but hope it can help some others.
 
Backing up data (not imaging) background:

With an external drive, for backups, I use the xcopy command and create .bat files to run them. The advantage of xcopy is that if you use good organization, it can be set to only copy newer (or non-existent) files to the destination. For the first run this will, of course, copy everything; but on subsequent runs becomes incredibly quick (even with hundreds of thousands of files) since it examines directory by directory and copies (newer) as it goes.
 
As an example, I will share how I do this. My setup is an SSD (OS/Programs/Plugins) as the C: drive, and a partitioned 3TB into an 1TB E: drive (games and garbage), and 2TB F: drive (Projects, audio libraries, etc.)
 
As I also do not trust my SSD, I work on my desktop mostly (non-SONAR stuff) and keep folders there, which keep my "data" on the C: drive mostly (not all) confined to the C:\users\[main user] directory (the desktop is a sub directory). I have a batch file to put data from C: (the SSD) onto F: (the HDD), and runs quick.
 
The second backup I do is a bit more intensive that copies the F: drive to an external 1TB drive (G:)
 
The xcopy command (how I set it up and use it):
Info on the xcopy command can be found here. The way I employ this is as follows:
 
xcopy [top level source folder] [top level destination folder] /d /c /s /e
pause
 
the switches (/[character] as the end) tell it to:
   /d = Copies only newer files (with no date included, this is the default)
   /c = Continues copying even if errors occur (if you copy a directory with system files it will get an access error, so this ignores those).
   /s = Copies folders and subfolders except for empty ones (so that your directory tree is duplicated on the destination).
   /e = Copies any subfolder, even if it is empty (this ensures the directory tree is complete, and is used in tandem with /s above).
 
the pause is used to keep the CMD window open when done so that I can see how many files it copied (otherwise it flashes closed so fast I do not see it).
 
How to create the xcopy batch file:
 
I use two batch files most often. The first moves data from the SSD to the internal HDD and is run often. The second moves things to an external HDD and run less frequently.
 
To create the batch file, open NotePad, and enter the xcopy commands. As example, for my machine, the file to copy the SSD to the internal HDD is:
 
          xcopy c:\users\michael f:\michael /d /c /s /e
          pause
 
I then save this to my desktop (so easily found/used) and change the extension from .txt to .bat. Then to edit it later, can right click and select "Edit." To execute the batch file(s), I right click and select "Run as administrator."
 
How (I personally) employ xcopy:
 
Batch file (#1) to copy the SSD to the internal HDD, is the same as the one above.
 
Batch file (#2) to copy the internal HDD to an external HDD:
 
          xcopy F:\ G:\ /d /c /s /e
          pause
 
          xcopy C:\ProgramData G:\ProgramData /d /c /s /e
          pause
 
Since the users directory has already been copied to the internal HDD, this makes a second copy of it on the external (which allows me to clean out the C: drive (SSD) version to free space on the SSD and know I have 2 backups just in case).
 
I have also copied the C:\Program Files and C:\Program Files (x86) to an external HDD as data is stored there for some programs, but backups to these are infrequent.
 
 I cannot believe I typed such a long post, so I hope it helps someone! With (all of) this said, I also recommend creating an image of the C: drive, just in case that drive does fail and you need to install a new drive to get your machine back up and running "as is."
  

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#13
codamedia
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Re: Hard Drive Heart Attack!!!! 2014/01/25 09:45:49 (permalink)
I always keep an external drive with a duplicate of all the data on my working drive(s).
 
When I complete a song I do some general maintenance. Remove unwanted files/takes, convert any VSTi to audio, export all tracks to stems, make notes, etc...   After that is complete I burn the entire project folder (with stems and mixes) to a DVD. Rarely do I need more than one DVD to store all the data for a song. Then I make a copy of that DVD for a library that get's stored offsite.
 
That gives me 4 copies of each song once completed. Seems excessive, but eventually my working copy will get removed which would leave me with three copies, one of which is offsite.

Don't fix it in the mix ... Fix it in the take! 
 

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#14
slartabartfast
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Re: Hard Drive Heart Attack!!!! 2014/01/25 12:58:56 (permalink)
markyzno
Also worth noting that sometimes, if its a hard drive failure, you'll get the "clicks of death" as you boot up. i.e you'll hear the HD trying to work but like a broken groove in a record gets stuck....Not sure if this is the case with SSDs but they RARELY go down anyway....



If you are hearing noise coming out of your SSD, you are probably experiencing the dreaded arthritic electron syndrome (AES). After prolonged use, many off brand electrons will develop instability as they move about in solid state devices. So long as this is just a simple wobble, you will have no real problem, but the erratic bouncing around this causes will inevitably result in uneven wear on the semiconductor atoms, and the electrons themselves will go from their usual shape and develop protrusions (spurs) that will tend to catch on each other causing clumping. It is the battering together of these larger electron clumps that causes the clicks you refer to. By that time it is too late to do anything except soak the chips in three in one oil and pray.
#15
markyzno
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Re: Hard Drive Heart Attack!!!! 2014/01/25 13:03:47 (permalink)


Sonar Platinum 64 bit > Pro tools 10.3.2 >Intel i7 3770K > 16Gb Ram > Gigabyte Z77-D3H Motherboard> NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660 2 GB > ATi RADEON HD5700 > 240GB OCZ Agility 3 SSD> Win 10 home 64 bit> Delta 1010 > MOTU Audio Express > MA-15D's > NI Ultimate 9 > NI Kontrol S61 1.1 > NI MAschine Studio 2.3 / KORG MS-20 Mini - Arturia MicroBrute > KORG SQ1 - KORG Kaoss Pad KP3 > iPad and IO Dock 2 running various bits > Bunch of guitars >

Sound Design on IMDB --
 
#16
mudgel
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Re: Hard Drive Heart Attack!!!! 2015/06/13 01:23:42 (permalink)
mettelus
R3V3RB
I have other drives and things, and have procrastinated thus far about properly backing up. But it got me wondering whether I can simply back up the entire drive somehow?

I will section this, as I am typing it this is already getting longer, but hope it can help some others.
 
Backing up data (not imaging) background:

With an external drive, for backups, I use the xcopy command and create .bat files to run them. The advantage of xcopy is that if you use good organization, it can be set to only copy newer (or non-existent) files to the destination. For the first run this will, of course, copy everything; but on subsequent runs becomes incredibly quick (even with hundreds of thousands of files) since it examines directory by directory and copies (newer) as it goes.
 
As an example, I will share how I do this. My setup is an SSD (OS/Programs/Plugins) as the C: drive, and a partitioned 3TB into an 1TB E: drive (games and garbage), and 2TB F: drive (Projects, audio libraries, etc.)
 
As I also do not trust my SSD, I work on my desktop mostly (non-SONAR stuff) and keep folders there, which keep my "data" on the C: drive mostly (not all) confined to the C:\users\[main user] directory (the desktop is a sub directory). I have a batch file to put data from C: (the SSD) onto F: (the HDD), and runs quick.
 
The second backup I do is a bit more intensive that copies the F: drive to an external 1TB drive (G:)
 
The xcopy command (how I set it up and use it):
Info on the xcopy command can be found here. The way I employ this is as follows:
 
xcopy [top level source folder] [top level destination folder] /d /c /s /e
pause
 
the switches (/[character] as the end) tell it to:
   /d = Copies only newer files (with no date included, this is the default)
   /c = Continues copying even if errors occur (if you copy a directory with system files it will get an access error, so this ignores those).
   /s = Copies folders and subfolders except for empty ones (so that your directory tree is duplicated on the destination).
   /e = Copies any subfolder, even if it is empty (this ensures the directory tree is complete, and is used in tandem with /s above).
 
the pause is used to keep the CMD window open when done so that I can see how many files it copied (otherwise it flashes closed so fast I do not see it).
 
How to create the xcopy batch file:
 
I use two batch files most often. The first moves data from the SSD to the internal HDD and is run often. The second moves things to an external HDD and run less frequently.
 
To create the batch file, open NotePad, and enter the xcopy commands. As example, for my machine, the file to copy the SSD to the internal HDD is:
 
          xcopy c:\users\michael f:\michael /d /c /s /e
         pause
 
I then save this to my desktop (so easily found/used) and change the extension from .txt to .bat. Then to edit it later, can right click and select "Edit." To execute the batch file(s), I right click and select "Run as administrator."
 
How (I personally) employ xcopy:
 
Batch file (#1) to copy the SSD to the internal HDD, is the same as the one above.
 
Batch file (#2) to copy the internal HDD to an external HDD:
 
          xcopy F:\ G:\ /d /c /s /e
          pause
 
          xcopy C:\ProgramData G:\ProgramData /d /c /s /e
          pause
 
Since the users directory has already been copied to the internal HDD, this makes a second copy of it on the external (which allows me to clean out the C: drive (SSD) version to free space on the SSD and know I have 2 backups just in case).
 
I have also copied the C:\Program Files and C:\Program Files (x86) to an external HDD as data is stored there for some programs, but backups to these are infrequent.
 
 I cannot believe I typed such a long post, so I hope it helps someone! With (all of) this said, I also recommend creating an image of the C: drive, just in case that drive does fail and you need to install a new drive to get your machine back up and running "as is."
  


Your post has been judged tip of the day. 😇 It's been turned into a Word docx and uploaded to my Onedrive as
X-Copy for Incemental Bachups.docx. Please check it out. You have full attribution. If you have more let me know. When I have time I'll convert all the docs to PDF. Of course if you object, let me know and I'll take it down. It was not my intention to cause a problem just want to share what you've already shared.

Mike V. (MUDGEL)

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#17
arachnaut
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Re: Hard Drive Heart Attack!!!! 2015/06/13 02:11:51 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby mettelus 2015/06/13 16:38:53
I prefer Robocopy over Xcopy.
 
I sync (such as drive H and I) using a script like this:
 
robocopy H:\ I:\ /E  /SL /NP /NDL /XD "System Volume Information"  /XF drive.ico /XD $RECYCLE.BIN /XD RECYCLER /XD ".gobbler" /XF bootsqm.dat /XD "My backups" /XF "synctoy*.dat"

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#18
dan le
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Re: Hard Drive Heart Attack!!!! 2015/06/13 02:45:35 (permalink)
To all of you who claim that you have a perfect backup.
If you use Acronis for instance to clone your c: drive, and your c: drive goes kaput, then you restore to a brand NEW c: drive, then do you have to REAUTHORIZE all programs and plugins that need to be authorized though?
dan
 
#19
Cactus Music
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Re: Hard Drive Heart Attack!!!! 2015/06/13 02:48:22 (permalink)
Edit-- hey this thread is a year and a half old?? O well I leave what I typed below as it might help someone else.. 
 
When I first built my new DAW computer last fall I was getting random blue screens on boot up. 
Turned out after a month of head scratching my power supply ( it was new) was not working properly and finally died. After I replaced it, the blue screens never returned.  
 
And check your SSD drives web site for firmware updates. EVO drives need their firmware updated as an example. 
 
I use mine as the C drive and do not store anything there. It's just OS and software. 
I then have two 1 TB 7200 RPM drives, One for data and one for back up. 
I just drag and drop my main folders and date them. Storage is cheap and I often have 3 or 4 folders with the same projects kicking around. 
I also put everything important on another 2 TB external drive. 
I just bought a 256 GB SSD that I'm going to use as my working DATA drive. 
So my DAW will have 4 drives. 
 
post edited by Cactus Music - 2015/06/13 02:57:01

Johnny V  
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#20
Tunerman
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Re: Hard Drive Heart Attack!!!! 2015/06/13 11:11:57 (permalink)
dan le has a very good question that I too would like an answer for. If anyone knows,
please speak up. What a incredible hassle to re-authorize everything.....ugh!

“When I sit at my worm-eaten piano, I envy no king in his happiness" -F.J.Haydn
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#21
jatoth
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Re: Hard Drive Heart Attack!!!! 2015/06/13 12:54:15 (permalink)
dan le
To all of you who claim that you have a perfect backup.
If you use Acronis for instance to clone your c: drive, and your c: drive goes kaput, then you restore to a brand NEW c: drive, then do you have to REAUTHORIZE all programs and plugins that need to be authorized though?
dan
 




I have never had to re-authorize any software after a clone. But, then I have not cloned my DAW so I can't speak for all the plugs.
Windows, Office, Intuit, etc. did not need to be re-authorized.
Now if you move it to a new motherboard, that's another story as these programs are tied to mobo ID.
 

John
 
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mettelus
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Re: Hard Drive Heart Attack!!!! 2015/06/13 16:43:00 (permalink)
arachnaut
I prefer Robocopy over Xcopy.
 


There are indeed situations where robocopy must be used (I forget the nuances off the top of my head but path name length seems to be one of them). I do run both xcopy and robocopy, but have found the xcopy algorithm to be quicker. You can actually watch robocopy "think" as it goes, which is slow enough to read, but xcopy just compares the directory structures and copies newer/non-existent files (to that structure).
 
Another point with this is if you use temporary locations (like desktop, etc.) and then "permanently store" things in another place afterwards, that it is possible to create duplicate files. There are utilities out there to scan for duplicates, and I typically do not worry for them unless they are more than 10MB in size. Just be very careful in using such a utility, as they will not stop you if you chose to delete the wrong duplicates. Most have a "protect duplicates in these folders" type of options.
 
 
post edited by mettelus - 2015/06/13 16:50:01

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#23
arachnaut
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Re: Hard Drive Heart Attack!!!! 2015/06/13 19:06:37 (permalink)
If you clone, you need to use the whole drive. I prefer image backups, so I can have many versions on a single drive.
I've restored my system drive many times, it only takes about 10-15 minutes. I've never cloned a drive.

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#24
river
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Re: Hard Drive Heart Attack!!!! 2015/06/14 14:07:28 (permalink)
dan le
To all of you who claim that you have a perfect backup.
If you use Acronis for instance to clone your c: drive, and your c: drive goes kaput, then you restore to a brand NEW c: drive, then do you have to REAUTHORIZE all programs and plugins that need to be authorized though?
dan
 


No, all licenses will be intact. I have used Acronis for 10 years and have had to replace 2 master drives, both times a seamless plug and play operation. Another nice feature is the speed of cloning, I just made a fresh image after some software additions and upgrades....350G of content cloned in less than 20 minutes.
#25
river
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Re: Hard Drive Heart Attack!!!! 2015/06/14 14:10:14 (permalink)
jatoth
dan le
To all of you who claim that you have a perfect backup.
If you use Acronis for instance to clone your c: drive, and your c: drive goes kaput, then you restore to a brand NEW c: drive, then do you have to REAUTHORIZE all programs and plugins that need to be authorized though?
dan
 




I have never had to re-authorize any software after a clone. But, then I have not cloned my DAW so I can't speak for all the plugs.
Windows, Office, Intuit, etc. did not need to be re-authorized.
Now if you move it to a new motherboard, that's another story as these programs are tied to mobo ID.
 


I was actually successful with installing a clone after a system rebuild that included a new mobo. I wasn't expecting it to work, but it did.
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jatoth
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Re: Hard Drive Heart Attack!!!! 2015/06/14 15:35:14 (permalink)
river
 
I was actually successful with installing a clone after a system rebuild that included a new mobo. I wasn't expecting it to work, but it did.




I have also cloned to a completely new machine using the Acronis universal restore. However, in that case I did have to re-authorize the OS and a few apps. But not when just replacing the hard drive on the same computer.

John
 
X3e Producer, Sonar Platinum, Sweetwater CreationStation i5 3.1gHz, 12 GB RAM, 500GB SSD OS drive, 1TB SSD audio drive, 1TB archive/misc drive, dual 22" monitors, Windows 7x64, SaffirePro40 (firewire), MOTU MIDI Express XT, Behringer BCF2000, dbx 586, Samson Servo 120a, Yamaha HS80M, Auratone 5c Cubes, Sennheiser HD650, Sony MDR 7509HD, Sony MDR 7506, Kurzweil K2500XS, Roland XP-30, Proteus 2000.
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