Tips for leaning chord tones?

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sharke
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2014/01/25 18:29:52 (permalink)

Tips for leaning chord tones?

I pretty much know the guitar fretboard inside and out, in that I can take any note on any string and immediately know where all the intervals are in relation to that note. In this way I can construct chords and scales on the fly. It's served me well on the guitar.

Recently though I've begun to realize that I really should know each key inside out in terms of note names, not shapes on a fretboard. This has become especially apparent since I started messing with keyboards and piano rolls. In other words, I'd like to know in an instant what a b13 in the key of Eb is, etc. Trouble is I balk at the idea of learning all of the intervals in all 12 keys by rote. I just wouldn't know where to start.

Any seasoned jazzers have any tips?

James
Windows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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    wst3
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    Re: Tips for leaning chord tones? 2014/01/27 14:21:25 (permalink)
    you only need to learn a few intervals - in all the keys<G>!
     
    And you probably already know some of them, even if you don't know you do - I've yet to meet a guitarist, or have a student, that could play completely from shapes. Most of us use a combination of sheer rote memorization, cheats, and shapes to get around.
     
    Anyway... you only need to "learn" through the Major 7th, everything else is X-7.
     
    A 9th is a 2nd an octave up (9 - 7 = 2)
    A 10th is a 3rd an octave up (10 - 7 = 3)
    An 11th is a 4th an octave up (11 - 7 =  4)
    A 13th is a 6th an octave up (13 - 7 = 6)
     
    And so on and so forth. At this point I suppose I have them memorized, but I think I still go through a little bit of a calculation too.
     
    And keep in mind that some intervals behave much differently on the guitar than pretty much anywhere else. For example, an "F" in the key of C is usually a suspended 4th - but that implies that the 3rd has been omitted. But when you add an 11th the 3rd may still be in place - and that's a very different sound. Except that on the guitar we may need to add that 11th in the same octave - same 11th like sound, but different because the tension between the 3rd and the 4th is exaggerated. All that applies to the 2nd/9th as well. After that it becomes a bit more of "colour" - a 13th chord does sound different than a 6th, but it isn't as dramatic.
     
     

    -- Bill
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    rumleymusic
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    Re: Tips for leaning chord tones? 2014/01/27 14:46:58 (permalink)
    Music theory instructor tip for learning all 12 intervals.  
     
    Do some research.  Find a song that begins with each interval and memorize that. For example: 


    minor 2nd - Jaws
    Augmented 4th - Simpsons melody
    Major 6 - NBC theme
    minor 7th - "There's a place for us" from West Side Story.
     
    Pretty soon it will become second nature and you will be able to pickout any interval out of thin air in any key or play any melody without guessing.  

    Daniel Rumley
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    Beepster
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    Re: Tips for leaning chord tones? 2014/01/27 14:55:14 (permalink)
    Disregard this post. I misunderstood what you wanted. Leaving it up for others though. Thought it was weird you were asking about this but you weren't asking about what I thought you were asking at all. Derp.
    ====================================================================
     
    It all stays the same in every key. Learn one key and you know them all. The tricky part is translating it all from key to key and that is only because we use the diatonic system instead of a chromatic system.
     
    For guitar though the easiest way around this is learn the bar chords starting on the low E. Learn all the variations you intend to use in the six string bar chord format. Learn exactly which ones appear on which step of the Major scale... meaning learn every variation possible for all seven steps on the Ionian mode.
     
    At that point you can now use any of those chords properly in any of the natural Major set of modes (which includes natural minor of course) by simply changing the tonic and retaining the exact fretboard pattern.
     
    From there you can translate or simply look at your chord books to learn all the variations for each step using bar chords with the root on the fifth string (use the same key you learned the 6 string bar chords in).
     
    Even without learning the 5th string root bar chords (but it is recommended) you can simply refer to the 6 string bar chords and translate them easily to any position on the neck using various methods (write them down, by ear, whatever).
     
    After you get your fill of the Major modes repeat the process with all seven modes of the Harmonic minor and then the Melodic minor (which is less important when dealing with chords but is still an interesting from a theoretical standpoint).
     
    After that you pretty much have the framework for everything you'll encounter and it's just a matter of ommitting, adding or moving notes to compensate for alternate scales, pentatonics or whatever.
     
    It's a whole heckuva a lot of chords though. I recommend starting with the six string bar chords in E because they stack up nice and neat from I to VII. As I said then you simply translate them elsewhere on the neck or into other keys.
     
    I created an exercise regime that is arpeggios of I III V up to the second octave that cycles through all twelve keys in a) bar chord format then b) first position. Just that itself was quite the undertaking (especially the first position part) but it was bloody well worth it.
    post edited by Beepster - 2014/01/27 16:37:58
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    Beepster
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    Re: Tips for leaning chord tones? 2014/01/27 15:00:42 (permalink)
    Disregard this as well.
    =====================================================================
     
    Oh and do the I, III, V stuff first. Then add the VII, then start messing with the other stuff. Also as you do this try to learn the applicable mode for each step in THAT position (like if you are learning the A Dominant bar chord at the fifth fret then learn how to play the Mixolydian mode starting on the E string at the fifth fret). That way when you DO start looking at the 9ths and 13ths and stuff you can simply count up to that point and include the correct note into your chord.
     
    Hopefully that makes sense.
     
    Cheers.
     
    post edited by Beepster - 2014/01/27 16:38:29
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    sharke
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    Re: Tips for leaning chord tones? 2014/01/27 20:28:05 (permalink)
    LOL no need to apologize Beepster, that's actually pretty good advice for anyone struggling with keys and modes. I was lucky in being able to get modes and positions down pretty quickly when I started, I guess scale and mode proficiency was pretty much all the rage when I first picked up the guitar in '87 or so, it being the height of the guitar shredding era. There were loads of articles and tutorials about it in the guitar mags and you were pretty much expected to have all that stuff down if you were a budding Dave Mustaine or Paul Gilbert. 
     
    Recently I watched Eli Krantzberg's Jazz Theory course on Groove3 and it made me realize how much more I have to learn in terms of which scales go over which chords from a jazz point of view. All those substitutions and Kumoi scales and jazz-minors-a-half-step-up-from-an-altered-chord kind of rules that seasoned jazzers know inside out. 

    James
    Windows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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    sharke
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    Re: Tips for leaning chord tones? 2014/01/27 20:29:24 (permalink)
    rumleymusic
    Music theory instructor tip for learning all 12 intervals.  
     
    Do some research.  Find a song that begins with each interval and memorize that. For example: 


    minor 2nd - Jaws
    Augmented 4th - Simpsons melody
    Major 6 - NBC theme
    minor 7th - "There's a place for us" from West Side Story.
     
    Pretty soon it will become second nature and you will be able to pickout any interval out of thin air in any key or play any melody without guessing.  




    To be accurate, my original post was about naming notes and not ear training, although that's a very important subject in it's own right. Also, I just noticed that there are TWO copies of this thread, I have no idea how that happened 

    James
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    markno999
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    Re: Tips for leaning chord tones? 2014/01/29 16:12:30 (permalink)
    Sharke,
     
    Sounds like you have a good baseline in knowing the shapes.  That is the hard part IMHO.   The naming is something that is not necessarily consistent across the board.   For example, I had a number of music teachers who told me there was no such chord as a m7b5.   If you analyze the m7b5 chord you will note that it is actually a m6 chord, however, in many instances the chord can be behaving like a II, V progression.   i.e. B, A, D, F is a Dm6 chord with the 6th in the root.    The same notes could be called Bm7b5, and I would actually call it Bm7b5 if the progression were Bm7b5 to E7 to Amaj7 as the chords are leading to the tonic, A.....II, V, I.  In many cases naming conventions are not consistent, or, they are reflecting of the current key.  For example, would you call G, A, D, F#, a D/G chord or a Gmaj7 add 9?  Either works, and somewhat depends on the key or the knowledge of the player. 
     
    In your example of knowing a b13 not in the key of Eb, I would call that B, or the sharp 5th of the Eb scale...  Knowing the shapes already can help you immensely in quickly identifying notes and the similarities between chords.   i.e.  m6 and 9 chords are similar.   B, G#, D, F# = Bm6.   Change the root to E instead of B and you have E9.
     
    Here is how I think about naming in the context of Chords and some colorful examples in key of D using common guitar chord layouts...
     
    Add 2/9 = Major chord with it's 2nd included.    i.e.  D2 or D add 9 = D, A, D, E
    9th Chord includes b7 and 2/9  (7+2 = 9)         i.e. D, F#, C, E
    b9 or #9 includes b7 and b2/9 or #2/9              i.e. D, F#, C, Eb or D, F#, C, F
    1tth Chord includes 4 and b7   (4+7=11)           i.e. D, C, E, G 
    13th chord = 6, b7     (6+7=13)                       i.e.  D, C, F#, B
    13thb9 or 13th#9 = 6, b7 and b2/9 or #2/9      i.e. D, C, F#, B, Eb or D,C,F#,B, F 
    b13 is actually the same as Aug 5th.                  i.e.  D, C, F#, Bb
     
    There are many more possibilities but these are the general guidelines that I use.   Hope this was useful, and not too confusing.  The key is find a system that works for you.
     
    Regards
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    sharke
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    Re: Tips for leaning chord tones? 2014/01/30 14:31:09 (permalink)
    Yeah the inconsistency in naming and spelling creates an added layer of confusion, especially for the beginner. I learned a lot about spelling and substitution from Ted Greene's books, I guess the hard part is learning it so well that you don't have to stop and think about it, same way you can identify colors without thinking about it.

    I also think the key to becoming jazz chord proficient is in knowing which of those tones you can leave out and still retain the harmonic intent.

    James
    Windows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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