Idiot's Guide to Modifying Downloaded MIDIs

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cpkoch
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June 20, 14 8:39 PM (permalink)

Idiot's Guide to Modifying Downloaded MIDIs

I'm looking for a very very very rudimentary "how to" guide that explains how  one should go about modifying a downloaded MIDI file using a SoftSynth resident in X3 Producer.  Specifically I am trying to use a Midi  ... Don't Be Cruel ... and arrange a backing track in an ethereal ballad  type style as opposed to the way Elvis Presley released his version.
 
I use Sonar X3 and import the midi track. Three or four midi tracks are displayed. I create a SoftSynth like Cakewalk TTS1 track and set the midi outputs to playback through that Synth. (As an aside ... when I replace the SofthSynth.  the playback often no longer produces sound).   That's about as far as I can take it.  Is there something out there beside Groove 3 Sonar Explained etc that might help me move ahead in a piece-wise logical fashion?       
post edited by cpkoch - June 20, 14 8:49 PM

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    dubdisciple
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    Re: Idiot's Guide to Modifying Downloaded MIDIs June 20, 14 9:02 PM (permalink)
    I think this is a good question since covers are common regardless of pop music trends. I notice most guides on midi cover either playing midi as-is in a multi-timbral synth or bmp origin compositions. Never came across a good midi rearrangement guide. I have done such tasks but they are tricky. Here are a few simple things I do to make the task easier:

    1) Convert midi from one single midi track to seperate midi files for each individual instruments. There are plugins that convert type 0 to type 1 and vice verse. I think there is a CAL that does it within Sonar. This will make it easier to work in terms of individual instruments seperately.

    2) Check for events in the midi file that could lead to confusion like program changes. Nothing worse than rearranging a part for a harp and have it change to a tuba in the middle of a verse.

    3) I edit the midi files into structured parts. I will identify notes contained in verse and copy to all new midi clip and do the same for choruses, bridges , etc I find it easier to work in parts than whole song arrangements for this sort of thing. It gives me buding blocks that I can always copy and modify to create variety.

    4) I avoid using EVERY midi track extracted from the original file. For me, I can create more variety by creating all new tracks based on a central melody or chord progression than by simply copying note for note. Example: say the song has piano, bass, drums and sax. If I wanted to replace the sax part, merely copying and replacing the instrument with trumpet will sound like a trumpet trying to play a sax part. Instead I just ditch the sax all together and just open a trumpet track where I focus on complimenting the piano.

    I know that is not scientific or that thorough but they are some of the things that work for me
    #2
    cpkoch
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    Re: Idiot's Guide to Modifying Downloaded MIDIs June 20, 14 9:19 PM (permalink)
    I feel somewhat vindicated by your remark  "Never came across a good midi rearrangement guide".  I am fairly new to Sonar (Feb of this year).  I've buy backing tracks  that often need to be transposed.  In so doing, the tracks get to sounding pretty bad  especially  in the bass  guitar and bass vocal regions of the scale.  People suggest that I use MIDI files and create my own backing tracks. Hence my search for help.  I am still trying to figure out the lexicon associated with Midi instructions.  I certainly thank you for your prompt and thoughtful response.  I've a lot to learn; but hopefully, once I "break the code"  things will begin to fall into place.  Thanks again!

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    Guitarpima
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    Re: Idiot's Guide to Modifying Downloaded MIDIs June 21, 14 0:08 PM (permalink)
    You won't find re-arranged midi files. The trick is to know enough about music to do it yourself. I don't want to seem harsh but it's true. Once you have the midi and know the key and chord structures, all that's left is to write out what you imagine it should sound like.

    Notation, the original DAW. Everything else is just rote. We are who we are and no more than another. Humans, you people are crazy.
     
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    Cactus Music
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    Re: Idiot's Guide to Modifying Downloaded MIDIs June 21, 14 1:01 AM (permalink)
    I'm one of the few here that have been using MIDI files since 1980's. We had to roll our own and that normally took a whole day just for a drum and bass part. One day someone realized we were all re creating the same songs and the sharing of files started. First locally on our floppy disks, and then way later came the internet at it is now huge. But originally I did about 200 of my own midi tracks, I still use them and over the last few years have been digging into them and re doing them in Sonar. 
     
    It blows me away that there are so many free to grab tracks and I have certainly taken advantage of some of this. If I think of a new song I'll certainly do a search first. It's a crap shoot and 1 out of 10 are worth my time. No way I'm paying for a track as then I'll just make my own anyhow.  If the drums are well done it's salvageable. 
    Anyhow even the real good ones are wrong for me so I have been editing both my own and download midi tracks for a long time now in Cakewalk/Sonar. 
     
    Johnny's really badly written guide to Midi editing crappy downloaded files! The free version! 
    Important- OPEN the file, do not import.
    As you work SAVE, You can save as a MIDI file but this will not keep your Sonar settings so 'SAVE AS" a CWP file using per project folders.  
     
    As you already have figured out it's real simple to open the track and it will play as a GM file using TT-s1. Great starting point. X series have made this simple.  They will sound the way the author wanted them to sound. 
    This is all you need for now to work it into your arrangement so leave the other (better) synths alone for now. They come last. 
    First thing I do is delete the empty tracks. 
    I now solo each track and label if needed and mute all the crap that has nothing good to add. Like the wheezy sax vocals and guitar parts. 
    I might at this point go into the event list and see what's up, I'll leave this part out as you might not be that advanced to understand what you see there. 
     
    Now I'll change the key. This is easy, Highlight all but Channel 10 the drums. and use transpose. 
    And yes, don't expect the Bass part to cooperate. If you think like a Bass player then it's not a problem. But a Song  might have used Low E in the progression and if you think your going to get away with a "-5" transpose without a sub sonic fart for the low B!   
    Easy solution is Grab the B's and re transpose +12 now. Sure it's extra work but hey, remember I used to spend a whole day on just a bass and drum track,, you get no sympathy from me... I'm glad it's still takes time.  Suck it up bucko's. 
     
    Now the tempo which is super simple unless they used a tempo map so that's a little more work too. There is always possible hidden data like PG changes and tempo so look for this as the song plays. 
     
    Now I'll cruise through the song and add markers in the timeline, Verse1, Chorus, Solo etc. 
    Sometimes they stick to the original arrangement so it's OK the way it is, but I'll often redo the arrangement and add a better intro and ending. I like my dance songs to end around 3:?? Min.  This is where you learn how to use Sonars Copy/ Paste features. You will learn how to use Select all, Snap to grid, Split, Move over rover and make room. And most important undo!  
    That's about it and now I'll make it sound better by Using Session drummer, true Pianos and fiddle with some of TTS-1 sounds too. All you do here is insert the new synth and then go to the midi track and re assign it's output to that synth. Simple. Make sure you load a drum kit into Session drummer or Addictive Drums. 
     
    I use real bass so there is an audio track. I'm a guitar player so all I use for backing tracks is Real Bass, the drums and a bit of keyboards. The odd horns and string pad. 
    I'm proud of the quality I've acheived using Sonar and now being able to add audio as I've never found a good midi bass sound. 
     
     
    post edited by Cactus Music - June 21, 14 1:09 AM

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    mettelus
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    Re: Idiot's Guide to Modifying Downloaded MIDIs June 21, 14 5:44 AM (permalink)
    Excellent post!!!

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    g_randybrown
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    Re: Idiot's Guide to Modifying Downloaded MIDIs June 21, 14 8:38 AM (permalink)
    I've had to do this on occasion and have had success by just doing the following:
    1) file/open into a new Sonar project and save as cwp
    2) delete unneeded tracks (melody line, etc)
    3) insert better sounding synths and ctrl/drag MIDI data from the TTS tracks to the better sounding synth's track
    4) mute the TTS tracks and stick them in a folder named unused (in case I need them later for reference)
    5) tweak the newly created tracks
    post edited by g_randybrown - June 21, 14 9:01 AM

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    jerrypettit
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    Re: Idiot's Guide to Modifying Downloaded MIDIs June 21, 14 9:18 AM (permalink)
    If you're looking to add a string bed--or maybe a hot accordion solo--Band In A Box can generate midi or audio tracks to go along with your midi file.  You can import the midi file to BIAB and generate new tracks in new styles.
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    MarioD
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    Re: Idiot's Guide to Modifying Downloaded MIDIs June 21, 14 10:20 AM (permalink)
    Cactus Music, I have been working with MIDI since the 80's also via an Atari and Dr T's software.  Our paths are virtually alike, i.e. all day for one or two parts.  We used to share MIDI files via a BBS, remember those?

    I just upgraded to the String Studio V2 and I was really surprised at the good sounding basses in it.  You may want to check that out.

    PS - I also play guitar and bass with a little bit of wind controller and keyboard.



    The reason people say the vinyl sounds better is because the music was better.
     
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    tacman7
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    Re: Idiot's Guide to Modifying Downloaded MIDIs June 21, 14 10:57 AM (permalink)
    I was working with band in a box writing songs for a while. Got a SOP...
     
    I was using cubase:
    Import the file, select all tracks, open it in list view. find an unwanted event and filter it so those types of events are all you see, like program changes. Then delete them all.
     
    Basically deleting everything except note events.
     
    Sometimes you want to preserve the sustain on a piano part but not often.
     
    Then choose your voices etc.
     
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    Cactus Music
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    Re: Idiot's Guide to Modifying Downloaded MIDIs June 21, 14 11:19 AM (permalink)
    Hey Mario. Yes I remember there were share ware floppies you could order via the Atari Magazine.
    most were disappointing being only Piano solo (guy named Cider?)   
    I also bought a few from Roland that were on floppies. They were very good but cost $25 for 4 songs and you only wanted one of the songs etc. 
    These snot nose kids are spoiled rotten ya ask me... 
    I still end up making most of my tracks because lately I'm adding old Country Rock stuff that no one else ever covers. Yesterday I did "Go and say Goodbye'  Buffalo Springfield. 

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    Cactus Music
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    Re: Idiot's Guide to Modifying Downloaded MIDIs June 21, 14 11:24 AM (permalink)
    Please, BIAB songs are the first ones I pass over when looking for files.. they always stick out like a sore thumb with the off time drum fills.  I played around with it for a while but it actually slowed me down. I find it easier for me to play the parts from my Keyboard in real time. My earlier tracks had pretty simple drums parts, I stuck to this because every time you added a tom roll it cost you KB of precious Floppy disk space! Amazing to think of that now eh! 
     
    post edited by Cactus Music - June 21, 14 8:15 PM

    Johnny V  
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    MarioD
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    Re: Idiot's Guide to Modifying Downloaded MIDIs June 21, 14 5:31 PM (permalink)
    Cactus Music
     These snot nose kids are spoiled rotten ya ask me... 
    I still end up making most of my tracks because lately I'm adding old Country Rock stuff that no one else ever covers. Yesterday I did "Go and say Goodbye'  Buffalo Springfield. 




    Spoiled rotten   They just don't know how easy they have it today!
     
    I still roll my own tracks also but I have help from Band-in-a-Box. However I do replace most if not all of those MIDI tracks with my own. I also have help from Groovemonkee as they have good drum MIDI loops.  With BiaB I also have RealTracks but I very seldom use them.
     

    The reason people say the vinyl sounds better is because the music was better.
     
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    stratman70
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    Re: Idiot's Guide to Modifying Downloaded MIDIs June 21, 14 6:35 PM (permalink)
    And I thought I was the only one using midi files since the 80's. Guess a lot of us did, obviously. Was so thrilled when I got away from tapes (alesis and Yamaha sequencers) and got my trusty Kawai Q-80,
     
    Ooops, sorry, just meant to say to OP Sonar converts the file for you to multiple tracks when you open it with sonar. no conversion needed. Just don't save as type 0. As mentioned by others, cwp is the way to go.
     
    Great midi post above-

     
     
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    cpkoch
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    Re: Idiot's Guide to Modifying Downloaded MIDIs June 21, 14 6:57 PM (permalink)
    Thanks for your guidance GuitarPima.  Like you say ...  "The trick is to know enough about music to do it yourself". My response is "I wish I knew enough about music".  I don't!!!   Forgive me; but, over the years I've been one who plays and sings by ear ... and playing is not something that I even think about doing unless I've had several beers or martinis under my belt. That aside, I have, for whatever the reason  failed to develop the motivation  to learn to read properly. Nevertheless I am told that my skill in improvisation, rhythm and harmony are pretty good. Whether true or not, I do manage to get by and enjoy myself.  
     
    I have been working with MIDIs for  a few days now and finally am able to get them to play through Cakewalk's TTS and other Soft Synths.  
     
       

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    Ricebug
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    Re: Idiot's Guide to Modifying Downloaded MIDIs June 21, 14 7:22 PM (permalink)
    @cpkoch
    Just joined the forums and this is my first post.
     
    Been a MIDI puke since Bars & Pipes Pro, on the Amiga. Still use it through an emulator because it does some things better, though I'm also comfortable with Sonar's MIDI editing capabilities.
     
    If you want some help, feedback, guidance, you can send me a .MID file and I'll have a peek at what you're doing. I don't see an email link here, so...
     
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    cpkoch
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    Re: Idiot's Guide to Modifying Downloaded MIDIs June 21, 14 7:42 PM (permalink)
    Thank you "Cactus Music".  As Mike suggested ... EXCELLENT post!!!  I really appreciate the time you spent to create your (I'm guessing you are "Johnny" ... good guess???) guide.  I'm one of those who learned by discovery. Your guidance will be put to good use as I follow it during the process  I've already learned that a MIDI file may be opened directly making it easier to work. Is that why it is important to Open and not Import or is there other reasons to do that?  
     
    Hopefully I will create something that is useful for my attempt at  "Balladeering" Don't Be Cruelclick to acccess midi I'll post it with hopes that I'll get more valuable suggestions.  All I can say is thanks to all of you who have  offered help.  
     

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    cpkoch
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    Re: Idiot's Guide to Modifying Downloaded MIDIs June 21, 14 8:02 PM (permalink)
    Ricebug
     
    If you want some help, feedback, guidance, you can send me a .MID file and I'll have a peek at what you're doing. I don't see an email link here, so...
     


    Thanks so much for the offer.  As I have indicated elsewhere in  this thread, I am trying to create a ballad version of Elvis Presley's Don't Be Cruel   ...  here's the link to the midi http://www.syzygy-llc.com/Songs/Elvis%20Presley%20-%20Don't%20Be%20Cruel.mid  By way of background I have undertaken a project (just for the heck of it  to see where is goes)  to sing, record, produce and post on my YouTube Channel ... http://www.YouTube.com/user/cpkoch ... the 100 top hits from the 50's and the top 100 hits from the 60's.  Don't Be Cruel, released in 1956, ranks sixth,  I think, for the decade of the 50's.  I like the song but don't love it. So I thought I'd try to do it in a different style, more of a ballad that a rock style, just to see how it goes over with the  few (so far) who follow my channel.  If you have any ideas I am all ears and would welcome them.  
     
    Thanks again and welcome to the forum.  I too am relatively new to it and find it to be the best I've ever had the pleasure of "tuning-in" to!     

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    Cactus Music
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    Re: Idiot's Guide to Modifying Downloaded MIDIs June 21, 14 8:09 PM (permalink)
    Thanks, Don't be cruel is a track I did myself from around 1987. As I said I'm just going through all those files as I have time and redoing them all. Huge improvements. 
    I now add real Bass and to most I'm now adding some Piano and keyboard stuff as that's one instrument my playing has steadily improved on over time. Some I re do the whole drum track as I also now have the Yamaha digital kit. I'm in MIDI hog heaven myself and I wish there were more hours in a day to enjoy my hobbie. Summer is here and  I don't come inside much anymore...Time for a nice homemade IPA now see ya.. 
     
    Here's a page from my web site if your interested in how I do my solo act. 
     
    http://www.cactusmusic.ca/johns_rig.htm
     
     

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    cpkoch
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    Re: Idiot's Guide to Modifying Downloaded MIDIs June 21, 14 8:10 PM (permalink)
    Ricebug
     on the Amiga. 
     


    By the way, our first computer was a Commodore 64  (Wasn't that in the same family with Amiga?) that my wife bought for the kids so that they could play "Pong".  I got my hands on it! Got hooked and on the road to becoming literate. At some point  I was the "go to" guy when it came to how to do things with software.  

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    cpkoch
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    Re: Idiot's Guide to Modifying Downloaded MIDIs June 21, 14 8:14 PM (permalink)
    Cactus Music
    ...Time for a nice homemade IPA now see ya.. 


    Home-made eh?  I just learned that Sam Adams is now brewing an IPA  ...  but, we digress!  

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    mettelus
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    Re: Idiot's Guide to Modifying Downloaded MIDIs June 22, 14 4:40 AM (permalink)
    Another nice "editting tool" you have at your disposal is Melodyne. You can sing or even hum an audio track and then drag that to a MIDI track to get a decent start on MIDI data. This will not capture inflection but allows for quicker editting when your voice is your main instrument.

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    cpkoch
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    Re: Idiot's Guide to Modifying Downloaded MIDIs June 22, 14 9:07 PM (permalink)
    Good idea!  I've yet to record anything on a midi track.  As we speak,  I'm trying to  figure out how to do that! My Yamaha PSR 273 Digital piano  plugged connected through my TASCAM US 122  AIU is not seen by the Track. None of the vertical meters are affected.   I do have TTS-1  inserted as a soft synth.  I probably need to do something to the PSR 273 so that it becomes a midi controller as opposed to a piano.  
     
    I placed the PSR 273 in the PC mode and now it seems to register.  I need to remove the latency however.     
    post edited by cpkoch - June 22, 14 9:16 PM

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    #23
    Guitarpima
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    Re: Idiot's Guide to Modifying Downloaded MIDIs June 23, 14 0:01 PM (permalink)
    I should have read you post more clearly. When I think of modifying, I think of re-arranging the song to make it feel like my own. The other advice is really good.

    Notation, the original DAW. Everything else is just rote. We are who we are and no more than another. Humans, you people are crazy.
     
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    #24
    mettelus
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    Re: Idiot's Guide to Modifying Downloaded MIDIs June 23, 14 0:05 PM (permalink)
    I have found that having the correct drivers for the hardware/OS, and the driver mode (as I had my keyboard routed through my interface for a long time versus a USB connection) will affect latency a lot. The Playback Buffer (Preferences->MIDI->Playback and Recording) will also play into this as well (and I forget offhand what most recommend).
     
    For editing MIDI, the Piano Roll View (PRV) is my go to for the most part; but for creation, X3 has provided the "ultimate cheat" via Melodyne/ARA integration.... a simple dynamic microphone and drag/drop allows for incredible speed in composition, although I still have had to use PRV at times to tweak things.

    ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero (Wi-Fi AC), i7-8700k, 16GB RAM, GTX-1070Ti, Win 10 Pro, Saffire PRO 24 DSP, A-300 PRO, plus numerous gadgets and gizmos that make or manipulate sound in some way.
    #25
    jimkleban
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    Re: Idiot's Guide to Modifying Downloaded MIDIs June 23, 14 7:14 PM (permalink)
    Count me in as a multi decade MIDI guru as well.... also, started with the ATARI ST and Dr. T's ... can't tell you how many hours of work I lost because of bad floppy disks... anyhow, my frustration with the platform and the sampled instruments (remember when a sampling keyboard cost well over $50K, out of my league at the time).
     
    So, a few years later, PCs were all the rage... and a hard drive for a PC came with the darn thing but all those hours of Dr. T's knowledge.... investigated sequencing software for the PC and lo and behold, CAKEWALK looked a ton like Dr. T's, it even had an event list I could edit....
     
    Made the switch and still making MIDI files to this day.  I don't share them anymore and mainly do them for my own amusement (I had a real problem of folks taking the MIDI files I created and tried to make them better and put them back out on the web).
     
    When the SB AWE (wave table) sound card came out, that was it, I saw the light of MIDI and sampled instruments and haven't looked back since.  What a great 20 years it has been, the technology has advanced so much, I now can re create old CLASSIC rock songs in my project studio that rival the originals... probably the best investment I have ever made beside KONTAKT was in the UAD platform.. now not only do I have virtual instruments, I have access to virtual vintage hardware as well for tracking and mixing.
     
    Life is good and I am happy I stayed involved all these years.
     
    Sorry to the OP for not adding much to your question but spend some time and learn MIDI... it is amazing some of the things one can do now a days.  Like Johnnie said, he plays a real bass because he hasn't found a VST that sounds the same...... but, with the right controller and sample set, you can create real great guitar MIDI tracks as well.  I also make my own sample sets now of my vintage instrument collection for use in my projects (including guitars and basses).
     
    Good luck and there is some real good advice already in other posts.
     
    From one OLD TIMER to da yute MIDI guy,
    Jim
     

    The Lamb Laid Down on MIDI
    www.lldom.com
     
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    #26
    cpkoch
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    Re: Idiot's Guide to Modifying Downloaded MIDIs June 23, 14 7:41 PM (permalink)
    Hey Jim ... Yu da man!  Wish I had the credentials you have as regards Midi's. Twenty years eh???  Dumb' me  ... What's "yute MIDI guy" mean?  
     
    Seriously though, I've seen Kontakt and Dr T's mentioned frequently and am wondering what those programs do.  If you have a minute to explain I would welcome the info!   

    Sonar Platinum, HP Z210 Desktop PC,  Windows 10  64 Bit, 12  GB RAM,  Steinberg UR22 Interface Unit,  M-Audio Keyboard Studio USB MIDI Keyboard, APEX-TK -Condenser Unidirectional MIC, Audio Technica AT2020 USB MIC
     
    #27
    Cactus Music
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    Re: Idiot's Guide to Modifying Downloaded MIDIs June 23, 14 9:37 PM (permalink)
    You can still use Dr T if you install the Atari emulator, it's all freeware now. 
    http://tamw.atari-users.net/dwnloads.htm
     
    It was a midi only sequencer used and loved by many, interesting that Cubase was a competitor I think? 
    I never got beyond version KCS 1.5  because even back then we are talking $400 for the software. But I see the Tims Atari site has something like version 4. 
     
    So Jim... your the dude posting all those songs I stole  , sorry .. I'll send you some beer money OK  :) 

    Johnny V  
    Cakelab  
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     http://www.cactusmusic.ca/
     
     
    #28
    mudgel
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    Re: Idiot's Guide to Modifying Downloaded MIDIs June 23, 14 11:43 PM (permalink)
    Ricebug
    @cpkoch
    Just joined the forums and this is my first post.
     
    Been a MIDI puke since Bars & Pipes Pro, on the Amiga. Still use it through an emulator because it does some things better, though I'm also comfortable with Sonar's MIDI editing capabilities.
     
    If you want some help, feedback, guidance, you can send me a .MID file and I'll have a peek at what you're doing. I don't see an email link here, so...
     

    I used Bars & Pipes on Amiga. Ah those were the days.

    Mike V. (MUDGEL)

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    #29
    Cactus Music
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    Re: Idiot's Guide to Modifying Downloaded MIDIs June 24, 14 0:13 PM (permalink)
    To clarify.. I play real bass not only because there is a dissatisfaction (by me) with synth bass  sounds, there will also always be a huge missing articulation of the instrument. What I hear in my head as a good bass line comes across with little effort on my behalf on a real Bass. In the bygone days when I had to use midi it was a huge struggle to squeeze that sound in my head out of Midi equipment. I even bought the Roland GR 50 to see if that would help. I spent 1,000 of dollars actually. 
    The way we play a keyboard and the way we play a fret board are miles apart. There's all the subtul touchy feely things that midi will not translate, even with a guitar contoller..And don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of actual synth's, synth's for the sake of synthdom,,, I love a buzz saw poly synth and of course my Organs, Piano's and best of all--mr Tramp. Keyboards and drums are what midi does best...fretted instruments, and Wind??? hmmm.. 
    I don't even understand why people attempt to emulate fretted instruments with midi, seems that time spent struggling to make it sound sort of like a real instrument would be better spent taking guitar, banjo, fiddle or bass lessons. After all, I myself have become a pretty good keyboard player and even drummer through practice due to necessity. I can't fathom spending hours fabricating a strummed guitar part with midi when it would take 3 minutes to do it with a real guitar.. So to each our own and to each oure love of what midi will do. 
     
    Sorry I brought up the Atari and made all us old farts reminiscing about those days.  
    And I still say PC sucks at MIDI.... :) ( this was me in 1990 ) 
    No it's all good now and sooooo cheap compared to back then. 
    Atari 1040 St with 20 MB hard drive 8 MB of RAM = $1,800
    Roland MT 32 Midi 8 channel 32 note poly sound module ( now the MS Wavetable ) $1,500
    Korg Poly 800 49 key MIDI analog synth  $1,000 
    Roland 505 Drum machine $ 600 ? 
    Alesis Midi Verb $ 500 
    Yamaha 12 Channel Mixer ( 100 Lbs) $800  
     
    post edited by Cactus Music - June 24, 14 0:19 PM

    Johnny V  
    Cakelab  
    Focusrite 6i61st - Tascam us1641. 
    3 Desktops and 3 Laptops W7 and W10
     http://www.cactusmusic.ca/
     
     
    #30
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