Shopping for mics

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gswitz
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2014/02/28 19:41:31 (permalink)

Shopping for mics

http://proaudiotoys.com/3-zigma-chi-4x10-toolkit-swappable-condenser-mics-p-495.html
 
This appeals to me. I don't have any really nice mics. My most expensive is a baby blue bottle.
 
I'm interested in a nice matched pair of SDCs.
 
Because of the choices, I'm interested in this set...
but I'm not really sure for the price if this is a good value.
 
I'm excited to be shopping, but I don't get to make this type of purchase twice.
 
In part I like the idea of making a single purchase that will likely be really useful to me for a very long time.
 
So... what do you all say?

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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    gswitz
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    Re: Shopping for mics 2014/02/28 19:46:05 (permalink)
    btw, I'll probably get one of the smaller sets, but as long as I'm dreaming...

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #2
    The Maillard Reaction
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    Re: Shopping for mics 2014/02/28 20:13:33 (permalink)
    That is an extraordinary amount of money to pay for $500 worth of Chinese microphones.
     
    $3k could get you a nice pair of Neumann 184s and a better than decent LDC that you will actually keep enjoying if/when you move deeper in to the appreciation of nice mics.
     
    You could spend that money on a pair of Schoeps that you will love forever.
     
    You could get 4 Josephson C42s and a utility grade LDC.
     
    etc.
     
    It's worth spending some serious study time to figure out what your choices are. Some of the best options aren't advertised widely.
     
    best regards,
    mike


    #3
    gswitz
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    Re: Shopping for mics 2014/02/28 20:38:10 (permalink)
    Where should I shop?

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #4
    The Maillard Reaction
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    Re: Shopping for mics 2014/02/28 21:01:08 (permalink)
    I usually zero in on what I want to buy and then let a few vendors know I am asking a few vendors if they want to sell it to me.
     
    I bought my last pair of famous maker mics at Vintage King this past December. The sales rep I corresponded with answered each and every one of my technical questions accurately. He was a complete professional. His competitors didn't have the attention span to field the questions.
     
    The experience could be different the next time around.
     
    I usually avoid asking a sales rep for recommendations, but I often find that there are specific questions about accessories and what comes in a "package" for the negotiated price that only a sales rep can answer.
     
    I'd advise that you spend some quality time learning about mics while doing your best to hold off a g.a.s. attack.
     
    I sent you a PM with some of my more personal thoughts.
     
    best regards,
    mike
     
     
     
     
    post edited by mike_mccue - 2014/03/01 07:38:55


    #5
    mixmkr
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    Re: Shopping for mics 2014/02/28 21:08:39 (permalink)
    Dig up a pair of some AKG CK451...the older ones with the capsules you can change.  They should be good enough you won't need to worry about a stereo pair.  Or the newer ones, if that's easier and prefer new.  Or the 184's as suggested by Mike.
     

    some tunes: --->        www.masonharwoodproject.bandcamp.com 
    StudioCat i7 4770k 3.5gHz, 16 RAM,  Sonar Platinum, CD Arch 5.2, Steinberg UR-44
    videos--->https://www.youtube.com/user/mixmkr
     
    #6
    rumleymusic
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    Re: Shopping for mics 2014/03/01 22:52:25 (permalink)
    Can't beat a pair of KSM141 for an affordable high quality microphone and you get two polar patterns.  Sounds almost like Schoeps.  Also Beyerdynamic MC930, Miktek C5, and the Charter Oak M900 are some of the best cardioid SDC's i have heard under $1200 a piece. Beats the Neumann KM184 IMO, and I like the Neumann sound just fine.   

    Daniel Rumley
    Rumley Music and Audio Production
    www.rumleymusic.com
    #7
    The Maillard Reaction
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    Re: Shopping for mics 2014/03/02 08:57:52 (permalink)
    Darn it Daniel,
     I can feel a G.A.S. attack coming on.
     
    :-)


    #8
    wst3
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    Re: Shopping for mics 2014/03/02 14:20:52 (permalink)
    I had a chance to audition the microphones in question, and they sound decent, and the workmanship was above what I expected... till I saw the price tag. 4 amplifiers and 10 capsules is a lot of gear, no question, and the concept if brilliant - most home recordists seldom use more than a couple microphones at a time, so this kit provides a lot of horsepower.
     
    However, the price seems awfully steep. As has already been pointed out, one can buy a couple really good SDCs and a couple really good LDCs for $3K. You could also buy an outstanding pair of SDCs, or one LDC for that same cash.

    To my ears (everyone hears the world differently) the Neuman KM-184 is not in the same league as the KM-84, or the Schoeps Collette series (if you audition the Schoeps be sure to audition the MK-41 hyper cardiod capsule - that thing is absolute magic!!)
     
    The Shure KSM series is a great deal, they should probably be charging more for them... but I'm glad they don't.

    The AKG C-451 is right up there with the KM-84 as a classic. The AKG C-414 is one you really need to listen to, some folks love them, I'm not one of them...
     
    As far as how to buy... it isn't as easy as it once was with the dearth of local pro-audio shops. My recommendation (make that strong recommendation) is visit a couple local studios, offer to buy an hour or two, but often they'll let you audition their microphone locker for free. Spend some time with lots of different microphones, see what you like. Then check out the usual suspects...

    -- Bill
    Audio Enterprise
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    #9
    AT
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    Re: Shopping for mics 2014/03/03 01:50:15 (permalink)
    If you are dropping a couple of grand (or more) you should really listen to the mics yourself.  And be honest to yourself how trained your ears are.  We all know what we like - training let's us know what others like.
     
    The next thing is to figure out what kind of recording you are going to do, which is where your money should be spent.  I venture most home recordists record guitar and vocals mostly.  Some other acoustic instruments of and on.  Drums infrequently.  Your usage may vary.
     
    But at the least for a decent home mic closet you need a good LDC, a pair of SDCs, a ribbon, and a couple of dynamics.  That should cover the basics, except for drums (and could work for them if you'll refine from mic'ing [and double mic'ing] each drum).
     
    for $3,000 you should be able to get a running start on your closet.  With high quality mics.  Personally, I've found that good (ie. expensive) mics are just about as good as great mics (ie. really expensive mics).  A $1000 Bock Fet is as useful as a 5X as expensive tube the majority of the time.  While your engineering buddies may be able to hear the difference, the end result ain't that different, esp. for the audience.  Or maybe my ears aren't as discriminating as I think.  I know which mic I'd probably go for and certainly try first (Yo, get out the vintage '47), but whether I'd spend that extra $10,000+ is a different question.  But a collection of good, classic mics should sound better on more sources - or at least be able to record them all at once.
     
    The zigma bundle may be the best fit for you.  It may not.  I'd think long and hard before buying it tho.

    https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome
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    there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
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    wst3
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    Re: Shopping for mics 2014/03/03 07:50:48 (permalink)
    read the post above - best encapsulation of the topic yet!
     
    of course it made me think of one more bit... take your monitoring environment, and your recording audio paths into account, probably in that order. The room plays a big role in both as well!
     
    And Dave Bock's microphones are awesome!!

    -- Bill
    Audio Enterprise
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    AT
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    Re: Shopping for mics 2014/03/03 14:20:03 (permalink)
    Yea, Bill, it is all part of a system.  If you can't hear a better mic (or preamp etc.), it is either your monitoring CHAIN or yourself.  A decent room and good monitors are a must if you are serious, otherwise you can't hear the real but subtle differences no matter how good your ears.  And speaking of ears, they have to be trained.  I know I can't hear as well as I could when I was younger (one pays for all those live shows - whether working or just soaking up the bass in front of the pant leg flapping woofers).  However, I can hear stuff better with/in the song now, simply because I know what to listen for/to. 
     
    Better monitoring allows you to hear stuff, so you can get the best (or better) out of your mic placement/choice to drive a sweet spot on the preamp/comp chain which means that recording slides right in the mix which you can hear on your good monitors.  A lot of learning is going on and dog ears are the least important part.
     
    If you are in recording for the long haul, it almost always makes sonic and fiscal sense to buy the best you can afford, even if you stretch, to get a solid piece of equipment.  Classic hardware is classic because it works, but that doesn't mean you have to sell the house, sell the kids.  But that $200 Chinese condenser may sound fine today, yet after a year no longer gives you a thrill.  But a $300-400 dynamic can preform other duties better if you replace it as a vocal mic.  Meanwhile, that cheap condenser lies in the back of the closet, or is sold for a pittance as you try again.  You don't need a tube Bock to make your dream song (tho that would be nice), but it really really helps to have a good solid performer like the Fet etc. as part of your recording/monitoring chain.  If you can't get your dream sound w/ that, dropping more money isn't going to help.
     
    @

    https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome
    http://www.bnoir-film.com/  
     
    there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
    24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
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    rumleymusic
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    Re: Shopping for mics 2014/03/03 14:44:22 (permalink)


    Daniel Rumley
    Rumley Music and Audio Production
    www.rumleymusic.com
    #13
    The Maillard Reaction
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    Re: Shopping for mics 2014/03/03 18:27:31 (permalink)
    I stumbled on this old thread today while looking for some other specific info about a particular mic capsule.
     
    It caused me to think about how difficult it is to learn about and select something suitable from the selection of mics on the market.
     
    It reminded me why I don't like to make specific recommendations about specific mics and most other gear.
     
    best regards,
    mike
     
     


    #14
    gswitz
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    Re: Shopping for mics 2014/03/03 20:12:25 (permalink)
    Thanks for being so helpful everyone!!
     
    This is my current list of microphones - Bold marks the ones I use the most...
     
    AKG D880 - dented grill from a time the mic stand tipped over - used for vocals sometimes
     - Purchased in 1998
    http://www.akg.com/D880+++D880+S-1290.html?pid=1574
     
    Shure SM57
     - Purchased in 1998
    http://www.shure.com/americas/products/microphones/sm/sm57-instrument-microphone
     
    Shure SM86 - vocals
     - Gifted in 2005?
    http://www.shure.com/americas/products/microphones/sm/sm86-vocal-microphone
     
    Shure PG81 - Drum Overhead
     - Purchased in 2003?
    http://www.shure.com/americas/products/microphones/pg/pg81-instrument-microphone
     
    I have 3 of these  - Purchased in 2002? - Drum mics
    Shure PG56
    http://www.shure.com/americas/products/microphones/pg/pg56-snare-tom-microphone
     
    Shure PG52  - Purchased in 2002? - Kick Drum Mic
    http://www.shure.com/americas/products/microphones/pg/pg52-instrument-microphone
     
    CAD TSM411 - Purchased in 2014 - Snare Mic
    http://cadaudio.com/TSM411.php
     
    Studio Projects SP B3  - Purchased in 2007? - Vocals or whatever
    http://www.studioprojectsusa.com/b3.html
     
    MXL Guitar Cube Pro - Purchased in 2014
    http://www.musiciansfriend.com/condenser-microphones/mxl-guitar-cube-pro
     
    MXL Mogami Edition V69 Tube   - Purchased in 2008 - Anything but usually Vocals
    http://www.mxlmics.com/microphones/studio/V69/
     
    Blue Bluebird  - Purchased in 2009? - Anything but usually Vocals
    http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Bluebird
     
    MXL V63M  - Purchased in 2006 - Anything but usually Acoustic Guitars
    http://www.mxlmics.com/microphones/900-series/63M/
    post edited by gswitz - 2014/03/03 20:25:23

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #15
    gswitz
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    Re: Shopping for mics 2014/03/03 20:18:02 (permalink)
    As AT guessed, I record a lot of guitars and singers. I do record other strings too, banjo, mando, bass, violins, hammer dulcimers, etc.
     
    I record drummers mostly in bars and that only a 2-3 times a year for the past 10 years (although I usually spend months mixing those gigs).
     
    I record small string groups mostly, either in my home or in clubs.
     
    I do a lot of my recording out. I pack up fast and keep my stuff packed so I can be ready for a gig tomorrow without pulling the place apart. The hardest thing to load is the mic stands, of which I have 9.
     
    When I use spidf to sync my tascam 2488 to my RME, I can record up to 16 tracks at a time, which is, coincidentally, the most concurrent tracks I've recorded at a live gig. To do 16, I use 24 bit 44.1.
     
    Usually when I record out, at least 1/2 the inputs do not require me to use my mics. So, maybe a direct off the bass amp. A Direct off the guitar amp. Directs from Vocal Mics on stage that are owned by the performers. My mics are for the stuff the wouldn't normally mic themselves.
     
    Lastly, I'm a happy hobbyist. I am not trying to be professional.
    post edited by gswitz - 2014/03/03 20:22:29

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #16
    gswitz
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    Re: Shopping for mics 2014/03/03 20:35:21 (permalink)
    Over time, I have pretty much purchased my gear with an educated best guess and learned to use it after the fact.
    Akai DPS 12 -1999 - 16 Bit
    Tascam 2488 - 2003? - SCSI hard drive on Akai failed
    M-Audio Internal Card - 2004? - attempt at in the box recorded but I sold the card b/c the Tascam worked so much better.
    Line6 Single Input Asio interface 2005 - great for portable mixing but didn't really do any recording with it. Sent it to a Cousin in 2012 or so.
    M-Audio Fast Track Ultra - 2006? stuttered for a year before beginning to record in the box using the FTU. Couldn't get around all the drop outs on my laptop and the Tascam still worked great. I just exported to the computer.
    RME UCX - 2012
     
    The RME and DBX are great examples of tools I didn't know exactly how they would change my approach, but I've been very happy with both.
     
    I have a little money to spend. I don't really have 3K to drop. That was more wishful thinking. I'd rather spend 2 or less.
     
    The two things I've been most interested in are a pair of SDCs or a API A2D Pre (which would bring me up to 10 channels on the RME without having to add my Tascam. I do find that 8 is limiting periodically and that I'm sometimes asking a musician to use the same mic for instrument and vocals (which isn't terrible with a good bluegrass or old tyme band, but...).
    post edited by gswitz - 2014/03/03 20:40:54

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #17
    The Maillard Reaction
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    Re: Shopping for mics 2014/03/04 06:18:55 (permalink)
    At first glance I'd recommend that you get a more convenient extra 8 channels to ADAT converter to send ADAT to the UCX.
     
    How about a used MOTU 896HD (not the mkIII) from ebay for $400?
     
    Then I'd read the thread I linked too. Pay special attention to the ideas discussed by the professional magazine review writers and the candid comments made by the mic manufacturers and designers. It will leave you confused and dismayed but it will also prepare you to defend your self against the tendency for buy and sell vendors to leverage your emotions and tweak you with good for the money rationality.
     
    You deserve to get at least one really good mic to get used to. You can see that many of the mics you have owned have lasted a decade or more. What ever a good mic costs... imagine how the expense works out over a couple decades.
     
     
     
    A couple of hints:
     
    I bought a pair of Schoeps MK41s a long while ago. Every time I use them I am amazed and appreciate how natural they sound while they do their job. Every penny was worth it.
     
    I bought a pair of TLM103s more recently. Every time I use them I understand why the people who criticize them say the things they say, yet they still are more useful, if only for their consistent character, than most of the cheaper stuff I have worked with.
     
    I'd like to own my own KM84s and I have yet to succumb to the temptation to buy my own KM184s.
     
    The next SDC I plan to try is the Josephson ES22S... and I'm not sure why. ;-) Just curious I guess... and I'm still looking for the perfect tom mic... which some would say is because I don't have a bunch of KM84s. :-)
     
    Good luck shopping!
     
     


    #18
    gswitz
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    Re: Shopping for mics 2014/03/05 16:39:13 (permalink)
    Soundpure. Com had am interesting blind sdc shoot out. It helped to listen and compare the mics blind.

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #19
    wst3
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    Re: Shopping for mics 2014/03/05 18:42:55 (permalink)
    mike_mccueI bought a pair of Schoeps MK41s a long while ago. Every time I use them I am amazed and appreciate how natural they sound while they do their job. Every penny was worth it.

     
    For most things it is hard to beat the CMC6/MK41... just amazing, repeatable, and did I mention amazing? Not a KM-84, one uses the KM-84 when one wants a different, but equally repeatable sound.
     
    mike_mccueI bought a pair of TLM103s more recently. Every time I use them I understand why the people who criticize them say the things they say, yet they still are more useful, if only for their consistent character, than most of the cheaper stuff I have worked with.

     
    I don't care for the TLM-103, but I have a friend who makes magic with them!
     
    mike_mccueI'd like to own my own KM84s and I have yet to succumb to the temptation to buy my own KM184s.

     
    Try them before you buy... they are NOT KM-8xs, nor are they CMC6/MK41s... they are ok, but if you already have the best I think you'll be disappointed.
     
    mike_mccueThe next SDC I plan to try is the Josephson ES22S... and I'm not sure why. ;-) Just curious I guess... and I'm still looking for the perfect tom mic... which some would say is because I don't have a bunch of KM84s. :-)

    Exactly what I was going to say!!!<G>!!!

    -- Bill
    Audio Enterprise
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    #20
    Dave Modisette
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    Re: Shopping for mics 2014/03/28 12:28:44 (permalink)
    BTW, that was a good link to that forum thread.  Good reading and very thought provoking.

    Dave Modisette ... rocks a Purrrfect Audio Studio Pro rig.

    http://www.gatortraks.com 
    My music.
    ... And of course, the Facebook page. 
    #21
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