Rickenbacker + POD + SONAR = ??

Hi All,
 
I've been trying for some time to get my gear working exactly how I want it. In most areas I'm pretty happy with the results but there's one that I'm not quite hitting yet...
 
On stage, my beloved combination of Rickenbacker 330 through a Fender Twin Reverb is enough to peel even the most stubborn tiles off the toilet walls - I love a crisp sound with a menacing bottom-end, topped with a shiny clean chime (I'm trying desperately to avoid using the term 'jangly' as it's a bit too clichéd with a Ricky, but hey-ho).
 
My playing style is somewhat reminiscent to Peter Buck's figures and deep note riffs (Driver 8/The One I Love/So. Central Rain) but there's also a fair bit of busy Marr arpeggios going on in there too (Girl Afraid/Still Ill/Barbarism). Without wanting to sound too derivative, you might get the idea of where I'm coming from.
 
The problem I have is trying to nail this sound with the equipment I have: I'm basically using a POD 2.0 between the guitar and the DAW. I always record dry without FX but even after adding them in SONAR I'm not getting anything that stands out too well - I think the problem I have is that 'stand-alone', the guitar sounds lovely when I'm setting it up to record but, within a bigger SONAR mix, it's getting buried and blurred and just not cutting through. Of course, all this points to my abilities at mixing, EQing, reverb/delay/comp, levels and pan separation etc. but even after numerous multiple tweaks and start-again reboots, I'm never fully satisfied with where it ends up.
 
Does anyone have any suggestions or advice for setting up (pre or post)?
 
I fear the answer is to keep trying and trying (and I know I'm not going to get a reply that says "Turn your 5 Ricky dials and your 10 POD dials to these positions and everything will be perfect forever and ever amen") but some good tips might be just the thing to get me out of my rut.
 
Thankee sai,
 
Frink.

Dammit! I knew someone would say that. 
 
The Twin's a fine beast but it does rather hoot like a banshee. My 'studio' is a room in my house so I have to keep the noise down, meaning that my allowable recording time is down to a few hours every weekend. When using the POD, however, I can twang along nicely without the cat even noticing.
 
I have experimented with putting a mic (a Rode NT3 or a Shure SM58) on the Twin but there's a fair bit of valve hum coming off it and my studio is not so big that it's tricky to get a good mic position without breaking a window or two.
 
I've certainly put more thought into this method lately but I'm still secretly hoping that someone somewhere is going to switch on a big bulb over my head...

"Standalone...guitar lovely, but in a mix..."
 
Try playing the mix with all muted cept guitar.  This may go quicker w 4-6 busses steada individual trax. Guitar lovely, yes or no? If yes, you captured the lovely you heard on capture/setup, if no...something's been lost and you have to figure out what.
 
Unmute vox. Guitar still lovely, yes or no? If yes...unmute the next most likely competitor...keys if present, bass if not. You know where the general freq overlaps occur. When you find the intruder, start w its fader. Bring it in looking for two things, where the masking begins, and, if possible why. Whats going away in guitar, or stepping on it from another source?
 
Some usual key elements to a lovely guitar are:
1. Low end, the chunk from making a big cone move big air.
2. Phat mids.
3. Upper mid ring.
4. Attack, pick noise, chicka chicka (on rhythm)
5. Sparkle.
 
7.Nature of the fuzz if overdriven. Only you can define the proper mix of crunch and fizz.
8.Post...verb, delay, mod. I've had guitars that worked a ton of different ways till I lost the verb tails in a mix, which killed it.
 
Once you know whats going away, and who is causing it, you're on the road to a pair of objectives. First, priorities... maybe the offender is more important to the message than the guitar is. Second, hazy outlines what to do about the conflict. Placement in stereo spread, dynamics on one or both, eq, timing, what takes priority when, how many element's is the listener being asked to focus on at a time? Who is the boss, measure by measure, who can carry the piece alone at that point, indispensible, and is that part virtuoso enough to carry the whole tune or is evolution required? Is this measure a solo, solo w backing, a duet, (back and forth, or blended) a gang fight, team on team, (blended or back and forth), or a climax, all in, all they got?
 
If your in the bridge headed for climax, say, guitar bass and drums back n forth w vox, and the vox are too strong, all it might need is the tiniest bit of click/chicka from guitar to get back the balanced tension, and you might just get that carving a few db outta the 5k range on vox for more pick noise on guitar, and lose some nasty vox artifacts in the process, and at the same time, that might kill the mood too.
 
With guitar and vox both popular cuz they tag peak human frequency sensitivity, something that's worked for me is to pull unpleasant vox honk 700-900, and see what guitar I can narrowly slot in the gap...how can I tailor distortion and/or verb tails plus dry guitar in a niche where vox isn't working? How can I max that edge with additional small increments of pan or verb differential? Real important for me to keep a close eye on how I did this, cuz I might just want to swing focus back and forth as the message develops.
 
One more common one to look at, guitar verb.They often set their own, and it can fight w the common room you set the rest of the piece in very easily, especially if you are adding room to an amp's spring or plate. Recipe for mud there.
 
How do you know? Two verbs mushing out, or guitar crunch negatively interacting w vox? Two options...get lucky, or isolate these individual components by seperating them and A/Bing. You effectively have unlimited trax, clone buttons, eq, and mutes, once you find the broader areas of contention w busses. Then you have unlimited tools to address the conflicts.
 
In fact, the infinite is the enemy, too many options, unless you harness and group them with a systematic approach, planned in advance, and executed without getting lost in deep space. A hardcopy checklist is my goto, the first time I end a resolution session without finishing the original plan or solving the problem.
 
Good luck!

The minute you mentioned the "pod" I need not read further. They just don't come close to sounding like what anybody who has experienced the interaction between a good guitar and a good amp gets. It's a pod, Its for bedroom podding by podders. 
 
So here's a solution I use that might work for you too. 
Isolate the amp in something. 
A closet, a packing crate, your mini van in the carport. 
I use a Princeton which is smaller so easier to build a box for, but you get the idea. 
I use the same setting on my amp I use live in the studio, I have to. Nothing else will work. 
My amp is in a closet just outside my studio space with a bunch of couch cushions buffering the household from the racket. There is enough air movement to keep it from overheating. It also allows me to record with the mike and work without headphones. 
 
An even better idea I'm planning on re doing, is to use an extension cabinet. That way the amp stays in the room with you, but the speaker is isolated. This solves the heat issue as well. I used to do this but sold the little cabinet to a friend, now I miss it so I'm looking at 10" Celestion and build an open back box. 
 
Yet a 3rd solution is Radial makes a speaker line level DI box and then a power soak to work the amp. 

Do you own any software guitar amps? 
 
I've actually gotten a few great guitar tones out of Pod Farm 2.5 - not the real deal when comparing to a Twin Reverb on '11 but I think the difference is less when you put the guitar in the mix with the other instruments. 
 
 

Waaagghhh! Lightbulb moment!
 
Jay Tee, you said something that sparked a synapse somewhere in my brain and set me on a route to sorting my sound out... It was your comment about DI-ing with your Marshall and Roland.
 
I checked the manual (pdf was but a pipe-dream when I bought my Twin Amp) and connected the Pre-Amp Out Jack into my desk, unplugged the mighty twin speakers from the Main Spkr jack at the back and was then able to crank the volume up without sending tremors through next door's fishtank. The recorded sound was pretty much spot on - spangly enough to slice a sequin but meaty enough to make Mr T weep. 
 
POD's still cool for some wangy overdive sounds ('specially the Fuzzbox setting) but it looks like I'll be using the DI through the Twin Head for main guitar sound from now on.
 
Thanks for your comments on this everyone - sometimes the answer is so close to your face you look right through it 'cos it's so blurred...
 
Frink.
 
 
 
 

Mike is absolutely right.
For clarity:
DO NOT OPERATE ANY TUBE AMPLIFIER WITHOUT A PROPER LOAD ATTACHED!
 
Tom

Are you asking about your $50 solid state Marshall or another Marshall tube head you have?
 
If it is a Marshall tube head, which head is it? Some tube amps have a protective load resistor built in.
 
The Fender Twin does not.
 
If you want to run a Twin with out a speaker or load dump hooked up you should have a fire extinguisher handy.
 
 
 
edit spelling

The rear panel consists of a selection switch for the headphone jack, which when activated bypasses the internal speaker.
On THIS amp (Marshall 5 watt) you'll be fine, evidently it was designed for that.
Not so much with the Twin; although if it has a "Line Out" its a "modern" Twin,
MAYBE the line out can be used without a "load" attached.
I doubt it.
A Marshall "power brake" or one of the many "power soaks" out there would be fine.
THD comes to mind as one that would work well; Andy is a bloody genius...
 
T

DeeringAmps
The rear panel consists of a selection switch for the headphone jack, which when activated bypasses the internal speaker.
On THIS amp (Marshall 5 watt) you'll be fine, evidently it was designed for that.
Not so much with the Twin; although if it has a "Line Out" its a "modern" Twin,
MAYBE the line out can be used without a "load" attached.
I doubt it.
A Marshall "power brake" or one of the many "power soaks" out there would be fine.
THD comes to mind as one that would work well; Andy is a bloody genius...
 
T

Hi Tom,
FWIW, "The Twin" and the "65 VRI" schematics don't appear to have any protection. The older Tweed, Brown, Black, and Silver versions certainly did not. :-)
 
best regards,
mike

Although I agree that micing the amp is the best (and normally I will use two mic's).  I did a recent recording session and connected our lead guitar player through my POD X3 (I don't remember which "tone" I used).  The lead guitar player is a "must have Fender guy" with an old USA Fender Strat with blue Lace Sensor pickups and the model with the "ball bearing" nut and a 60's Deluxe Reverb amp.  When he heard the final of the CD project he commented that "I made his Strat sound very good".  The recordings were pure "traditional country" with no overdrive/distortion.  The only thing I added to the dry POD X3 sound was some delay using the Echoplex in the POD Farm 2.   

Hi Frink,
 I believe we have already given you the definitive answer. Your amp does not have any load protection for the output transformer except the speakers. If you don't want to use the speakers... you need to hook up a suitable load.
 
 I am offering this advice on the assumption that you own/operate a variant of the Fender Twin known as "the Twin", which has all the features you have described:
 

 
... you know what they say about assumptions. :-)
 
Having read your post, I think you understand what all the options are, so it seems like it's really up to you to decide how you want to manage your choices.
 
I know why I no longer have any Twins... they are so darn loud. :-)
 
The 25 watt option may be a good choice. It's a relatively new feature compared to the classic Fender Twin circuit and it seems like it is a strategy that starves the power tubes of voltage while leaving the preamp tubes at full voltage so it should alter the tone, head room and distortion character of the speaker output substantially, but probably will not alter the sound of direct out options to much.
 
Tom Deering recommended some good power soak products. You may enjoy those choices.
 
You just have to decide what's best for you.
 
I'm glad you saw the big red letters... my primary interest is in helping you not destroy your amp, and I will leave the tone quest for you. :-)
 
all the best,
mike

Also like to thank Mike and Deering. Very timely warning!
 
Hotplate, hmmm?
 
Will it keep my coffee warm while tracking?

Hi All,
 
For the record, my Twin has an XLR output called BALANCED LINE OUTPUT 3db.
Taking a line from here to the soundcard via a compressor gives a really hot signal so, with the OUTPUT switch set to LOW (25w), I can record some good noises and leave the speakers plugged in.
 
So far so good...