Helpful ReplyTrack audio normalization

Author
whitejs
Max Output Level: -89 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 89
  • Joined: 2004/10/18 23:00:18
  • Location: Columbus, Ohio
  • Status: offline
2014/03/10 11:08:52 (permalink)

Track audio normalization

I'm recording tenor sax into a track, and normalized the audio to -0.1 db.
 
My track level meters show peaks of 2db throughout in playback.
 
I normalized to -2 db, and get 1db peaks (overload) in the track.
 
How is normalization working?  Or is it NOT working properly.  I'm assuming this is not an average vs. peak thing.
 
How is one to control anything if normalization can't be counted on to do just that?
 
Hope I'm overlooking or ignorant to something.
#1
Cactus Music
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 8424
  • Joined: 2004/02/09 21:34:04
  • Status: offline
Re: Track audio normalization 2014/03/10 11:11:40 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby whitejs 2014/03/10 13:01:19
It never has worked properly, if your used to working with a wave editor Sonars Leveling and Norrmalize functions are pretty sad. 
So we are left with "tool copy" into a wave editor to perform these simple tasks. 
 
Download http://www.wavosaur.com/

Johnny V  
Cakelab  
Focusrite 6i61st - Tascam us1641. 
3 Desktops and 3 Laptops W7 and W10
 http://www.cactusmusic.ca/
 
 
#2
whitejs
Max Output Level: -89 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 89
  • Joined: 2004/10/18 23:00:18
  • Location: Columbus, Ohio
  • Status: offline
Re: Track audio normalization 2014/03/10 11:17:21 (permalink)
Hmmm.
post edited by whitejs - 2014/03/10 11:29:12
#3
brundlefly
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 14250
  • Joined: 2007/09/14 14:57:59
  • Location: Manitou Spgs, Colorado
  • Status: offline
Re: Track audio normalization 2014/03/10 11:37:46 (permalink)
It's possible I've missed it every time it's come up in all these years, but I've never heard of there being a problem with Normalize. My guess would be either the track is echoing live input noise along with the clip you normalized or the track has gain above 0dB or some processing is adding amplitude. Another thing that will cause clipping in a normalized audio fie is encoding it to MP3, but it doesn't sound like that's involved here. Bottom line is you can't make an audio file contain signal over 0dBFS, so something is being added in the signal path - or the meter is misbehaving somehow, but that would be a new one on me, too.
 
All that said, there are very few if any good reasons to normalize audio in a DAW with the amplitude control capabilities of SONAR, so I'd discourage you from even doing it and would be curious why you want to.

SONAR Platinum x64, 2x MOTU 2408/PCIe-424  (24-bit, 48kHz)
Win10, I7-6700K @ 4.0GHz, 24GB DDR4, 2TB HDD, 32GB SSD Cache, GeForce GTX 750Ti, 2x 24" 16:10 IPS Monitors
#4
whitejs
Max Output Level: -89 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 89
  • Joined: 2004/10/18 23:00:18
  • Location: Columbus, Ohio
  • Status: offline
Re: Track audio normalization 2014/03/10 12:18:16 (permalink)
Brundle,
 
What a great response.  I'm all ears and gratitude. 
I checked back on the project, and indeed the person who recorded me had added EQ boosts on the ProChannel EQ to add some rasp to my horn. 
 
WHEW! That mitigates a HUGE worry I had that there was no reference for 0db in Sonar's normalizing.  That would seem to be like sailing the ocean without charts, mix-wise.  I was SO afraid that it was a non-sensical program blunder, because it would mean that fundamental issues were up in the air.
 
Now, to your final question about "Why normalize?":  Maybe ignorance.  In this instance I was recording a practice tenor part just to feel out the other tracks done by other artists.  The level was averaging about -20 db due to low settings on the mic preamp on the first takes, so the person just normalized my track to get the levels up.  If we were doing final tracking, we'd get the front end right, level-wise, at the preamp, typically peaking at about -6 db.
 
That being said, how would you do it if you were stuck with a final that was too low?  Just boost the channel volume?  I'm all ears, and thank you for your response.  It made so much sense that I went right in and found the EQ boosting with great relief.
 
Jon
#5
brundlefly
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 14250
  • Joined: 2007/09/14 14:57:59
  • Location: Manitou Spgs, Colorado
  • Status: offline
Re: Track audio normalization 2014/03/10 12:53:38 (permalink)
Cool. Glad to help.   The great thing about DAWs is you can do everything non-destructively. Process > Normalize detructively processes the audio file. To bring a low-level signal up at the input to the track, use the Gain control (accessed via the Track Inspector or by setting the Track Control at the top of the Tracks pane to reveal it if it's not currently showing in track headers).
 
If the track is going to part of a larger mix, you probably don't need to bring it up that much. Peaking between -18 and -12 should be plenty. Even if it's going to be a solo track, you'll probably want to leave yourself a little more headroom for FX processing and Mastering. SOP is to have the final mix not peaking above -6dB going into the Mastering stage.
 
EDIT: I should clarify that Gain only affects the input level of existing, recorded clips. Live input signals are not affected.

SONAR Platinum x64, 2x MOTU 2408/PCIe-424  (24-bit, 48kHz)
Win10, I7-6700K @ 4.0GHz, 24GB DDR4, 2TB HDD, 32GB SSD Cache, GeForce GTX 750Ti, 2x 24" 16:10 IPS Monitors
#6
whitejs
Max Output Level: -89 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 89
  • Joined: 2004/10/18 23:00:18
  • Location: Columbus, Ohio
  • Status: offline
Re: Track audio normalization 2014/03/10 13:04:44 (permalink)
You just epitomized the spirit and purpose of a technical forum, Brundle.  I thank you.
 
I take it that using the Gain atop a track avoids little complications like post send levels and whatnot that would be in play (pun intended) when using the channel strip volume control?
 
Best wishes to you!
 
Jon
#7
brundlefly
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 14250
  • Joined: 2007/09/14 14:57:59
  • Location: Manitou Spgs, Colorado
  • Status: offline
Re: Track audio normalization 2014/03/10 15:48:40 (permalink)
whitejs
I take it that using the Gain atop a track avoids little complications like post send levels...



Yes, but, conversely, it will affect insert FX in the track's FX bin or the Prochannel because it will raise the input level to those FX; this can be desirable or not, depending on the situation. You just always have to be aware of how changing different level settings will affect the whole chain. Often your ears will tell you you're doing something wrong.
 
Search "signal flow" in the SONAR Ref. Guide for a chart that reveals all.

SONAR Platinum x64, 2x MOTU 2408/PCIe-424  (24-bit, 48kHz)
Win10, I7-6700K @ 4.0GHz, 24GB DDR4, 2TB HDD, 32GB SSD Cache, GeForce GTX 750Ti, 2x 24" 16:10 IPS Monitors
#8
AT
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 10654
  • Joined: 2004/01/09 10:42:46
  • Location: TeXaS
  • Status: offline
Re: Track audio normalization 2014/03/10 16:32:54 (permalink)
normalize is a tricky function.  Sound Forge has several presets which tell a lot.  Normalize for music is -18 dB, I think, while VO is -6 dB.  As you found, a -.1 is way to high and is guaranteed to sound bad, esp. bringing it up from very low.  Overs shouldn't happen, but it will still likely sound like crap and you'll have to lower it back down.
 
The gain is a much better option, tho I've been known to normalize truculent tracks.  But only a few dBs.
 
@

https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome
http://www.bnoir-film.com/  
 
there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
#9
Cactus Music
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 8424
  • Joined: 2004/02/09 21:34:04
  • Status: offline
Re: Track audio normalization 2014/03/10 19:23:59 (permalink)
Normalization has it's uses but like all audio processing you need to understand what you are doing when before using it. Sonar should not even bother having the option because it is so pourly done and I think it can destroy the track because of that. This is not so when using this tool in Wave editing programs. Normalizing is an important tool when mastering to make sure your tracks are as close as you dare to the max. This is before you think about applying a Limiter etc.
I've been using Normalizing for 10 years now as part of mastering. Wave labs tutorials explain exactly what it is, the dangers of abusing it, and how to use it properly.
When I first started using Sonar I would sometimes tool over to Wave Lab to bring the level of a track up if it was recorded low, this was usually a live recordings that were done on the fly. I agree that it is totally unesassary unless a track was way, way under powered.

Johnny V  
Cakelab  
Focusrite 6i61st - Tascam us1641. 
3 Desktops and 3 Laptops W7 and W10
 http://www.cactusmusic.ca/
 
 
#10
bitflipper
01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
  • Total Posts : 26036
  • Joined: 2006/09/17 11:23:23
  • Location: Everett, WA USA
  • Status: offline
Re: Track audio normalization 2014/03/10 19:47:14 (permalink)
There's nothing inherently wrong with normalizing files, just don't normalize to -0.1 dB. It doesn't leave you any room for further manipulation, such as an EQ boost. Even normalizing to -3 dB puts you in pretty much the same boat. -12 dB is probably a more practical ceiling. AT's suggestion of -18 dB is a good target.
 
One of the issues, as you discovered, is that the normalization process looks at raw sample values, not "true" peak values, which are often higher. That's why when you normalized to -2 dB you subsequently saw 1 dB peaks. That can be avoided by keeping sample peaks below -3 dB, but that still leaves too little headroom for mixing.
 
All of this is really moot, though, since there are only a few situations where normalization is warranted. If, for example, if you had multiple takes of the same instrument at wildly different volume levels, normalization could quickly get them into the same ballpark. Even then, you'd probably only bring them up to peaks between -18 and -12 dB.


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

My Stuff
#11
Cactus Music
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 8424
  • Joined: 2004/02/09 21:34:04
  • Status: offline
Re: Track audio normalization 2014/03/10 21:04:23 (permalink)
Exactly, Like I said, you need to understand what it is, and what it does, and what it can destroy if abused. 
 
Another example where turning up a track is useful is when trying to use Audio snap for drum replacement. It's nice to have the peaks maxed out so audio snap can read them correctly.
As always when applying destructive editing, keep a back up of the original.
With drum replacement you can even have overs as the audio track will not be used in the end, the Midi track will be all that is needed. 
 
And Bit, your scenario is where it's nice to actually have a RMS average of the takes. Another feature that requires a tool copy to a wave editor. Craig Anderton is interested in looking into adding a few of these type of features :}  

Johnny V  
Cakelab  
Focusrite 6i61st - Tascam us1641. 
3 Desktops and 3 Laptops W7 and W10
 http://www.cactusmusic.ca/
 
 
#12
THambrecht
Max Output Level: -73 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 867
  • Joined: 2010/12/10 06:42:03
  • Location: Germany
  • Status: offline
Re: Track audio normalization 2014/03/11 07:45:58 (permalink)
We digitize thousands of tapes and vinyls yearly with Sonar. We have already normalized 100.000 times.
This all works perfectly with Sonar since over ten years.
But it must in no case any plugin in the effect-bin.  And the gain and volume must be set to "0".
Otherwise plugins and gain and volume change the level.
When normalized to -2db all other audio-software will show -2dB. That works absolutely perfect without any fail.
 
 

We digitize tapes, vinyl, dat, md ... in broadcast and studio quality for publishers, public institutions and individuals.
4 x Intel Quad-CPU, 4GHz Sonar Platinum (Windows 10 - 64Bit) and 14 computers for recording tapes, vinyl ...

4 x RME Fireface 800, 2 x Roland Octa Capture and 4 x Roland Quad Capture, Focusrite .... Studer A80, RP99, EMT948 ...

(Germany)  http://www.hambrecht.de
#13
GMGM
Max Output Level: -81 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 494
  • Joined: 2007/10/26 21:01:15
  • Location: Omaha, NE
  • Status: offline
Re: Track audio normalization 2014/03/11 13:05:09 (permalink)
I'd read an interested article about normalizing audio files, in which they discuss "inter sample peaks" that can be introduced in the outputs. If you normalize too close to zero, you can end up clipping your output section. Someone more tech-savvy than I can explain it better. Here are a couple links relating to MP3 conversions, though a proper google search should help locate a more meaningful discussion as it pertains to working in a DAW.
 
http://www.producenewmedia.com/?p=497
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=85571
 
Whether or not normalizing is actually "bad" is a topic that will probably be debated for generations to come. I've stopped doing it, except in instances where I might be working with a poorly recorded track and my volume/gain adjustments just aren't cutting it. In those rare situations, I've gone no farther than -1.5 max
 
 
 
 
 

 
DAW: SONAR Platinum
PC: i7-2600 @ 3.40GHz, ASUS Motherboard, 16G RAM
OS: Windows 10 Home 64-bit I/O: MOTU 8M / MOTU 8PRE / PreSonus DigimaxLT / M-Audio Oxygen 49
#14
Sanderxpander
Max Output Level: -36.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 3873
  • Joined: 2013/09/30 10:08:24
  • Status: offline
Re: Track audio normalization 2014/03/11 13:11:11 (permalink)
What I found somewhat startling to realize is that making a cut with an EQ can also result in clipping/increased peaks. In effect, if you cut a frequency but that frequency was actually inhibiting another peak, you're creating a higher peak. It's not usually a big issue but if you're skirting so close to 0dbfs it can come into play.
#15
brundlefly
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 14250
  • Joined: 2007/09/14 14:57:59
  • Location: Manitou Spgs, Colorado
  • Status: offline
Re: Track audio normalization 2014/03/11 13:23:39 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby GMGM 2014/03/11 13:27:25
In real-world digital audio recordings, inter-sample peaks seldom exceed 1-2dB, and any decent DAC has enough headroom on the analog side to accommodate that.
 
As far as I know, the vast majority of audio processors, like SONAR, do not perform a virtual DAC operation or oversampling when normalizing. They just set the highest sample to 0dBFS (or whatever you specify as the normalization reference) and raise everything else proportionally.
 
In a typical audio clip of any musically useful length containing a real-world signal, there's usually a peak sample value somewhere in the file that is extremely close to any inter-sample peak that might occur elsewhere in the track; combine this with the headroom built into most DACs, and it's just not an issue in the vast majority of cases.
 
Most of the examples of inter-sample peaking I've seen on the Web are either very short, non-musical, artificially-generated test signals and/or do not produce any audible distortion when played back through a decent converter.

SONAR Platinum x64, 2x MOTU 2408/PCIe-424  (24-bit, 48kHz)
Win10, I7-6700K @ 4.0GHz, 24GB DDR4, 2TB HDD, 32GB SSD Cache, GeForce GTX 750Ti, 2x 24" 16:10 IPS Monitors
#16
Jump to:
© 2025 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.1