AnsweredMix not translating to Bose 5.1 Lifestyle system - how much do I worry?

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robotecho
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2014/03/11 21:30:59 (permalink)

Mix not translating to Bose 5.1 Lifestyle system - how much do I worry?

I've been working on mixing a few tracks for a couple of weeks now, and learning lots and lots. The sound is progressively getting better and more refined, and I'm enjoying the process a lot. I have a small basic home project studio with some acoustic treatment, and going back and forth between my monitors (no sub) and an excellent set of headphones I'm getting mixes that generally translate well. I have an issue with the current track I'm working on though, and its driving me crazy.
 
This track has a constant synth drone bass with some resonance. I'm side-chain compressing it against the kick drum so the bass doesn't get too clogged up, and it sounds great on my monitors, good headphones, crappy headphones and on the mediocre car stereo. Bass is very punchy and distinct on these systems, most frequencies under 50hz rolled off, transients tamed and behaving themselves, sounding warm and analog like I want it.
 
In the living room though I have a bose lifestyle 5.1 system, and it sounds like a different song. It doesn't even sound musical. The bass is very muddy and indistinct, and the sub seems to be emphasising different frequencies to the point that the dominant bass note is changing.
 
I have noticed this before on occasion with commercially produced music through this system, most notably 'Staring at the Sun' by TV on the Radio is pretty much unlistenable on this system. Other music is fair to middling, its really only a decent system for 5.1 movies. The room is quite large, irregularly shaped with polished timber floors and sparse furnishing. Not an ideal listening environment.
 
So, here's the question: Do I throw up my arms and say I don't trust that system and ignore these issues, or do I say hey, other music sounds OK on it, my mixes should too? And if so, what would be a good strategy to identify the issue with this mix?
 
Sorry for the long post!

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bitflipper
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Re: Mix not translating to Bose 5.1 Lifestyle system - how much do I worry? 2014/03/11 22:40:55 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby robotecho 2014/03/11 23:20:05
The Bose system has one of those little subwoofers, right? They are crap. Not anywhere near flat, they'll have a big peak in the frequency response, typically around 100-120 Hz. Fine for explosions on TV, but horribly inaccurate for critical listening. It's probably sitting on a hollow floor, perhaps near a corner. Resonance City! And of course your living room and studio space are going to have radically different sonic signatures. 
 
I say forget trying to satisfy the Bose system and rely on those other alternate references that are more or less in agreement with one another. If you can make it sound good in the studio AND in the car, you're well on your way - it took me decades to reach that point. 


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robotecho
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Re: Mix not translating to Bose 5.1 Lifestyle system - how much do I worry? 2014/03/11 23:17:02 (permalink)
Thanks for the reply bitflipper, really needed a sanity check here!
 
bitflipper
The Bose system has one of those little subwoofers, right? They are crap. Not anywhere near flat, they'll have a big peak in the frequency response, typically around 100-120 Hz. Fine for explosions on TV, but horribly inaccurate for critical listening. It's probably sitting on a hollow floor, perhaps near a corner. Resonance City! And of course your living room and studio space are going to have radically different sonic signatures. 

 
It's pretty big, but it definitely is crap. Hollow floor - check, in the corner - check.
 
bitflipper 
If you can make it sound good in the studio AND in the car, you're well on your way - it took me decades to reach that point. 

 
This is a recent breakthrough, but yes I can crank this track up in the car and the bass is still tight and no mid-range frequencies suddenly rattle the speakers. I haven't managed to get it to sound good on the bose system, but the effort of trying to has been very productive, lots of reading and experimentation.

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bitflipper
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Re: Mix not translating to Bose 5.1 Lifestyle system - how much do I worry? 2014/03/12 07:59:09 (permalink)
There's a book called "Mastering Audio" by Bob Katz. Get a copy. It's a standard textbook that every home producer should have. Don't worry if it takes two or three reads to absorb it, that's normal.
 
Bob explains the basic problems with translation, and offers at least part of the solution. What he doesn't address in detail is the importance of acoustics, measuring your room's acoustical properties and setting up acoustical treatments. A good resource for that kind of information is Ethan Winer's realtraps.com. Ethan's company makes acoustical treatments, but he'll tell you how to make your own cheaply and has lots of good information on his site.
 


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Guitarhacker
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Re: Mix not translating to Bose 5.1 Lifestyle system - how much do I worry? 2014/03/12 08:04:39 (permalink)
robotecho
 
I have noticed this before on occasion with commercially produced music through this system, most notably 'Staring at the Sun' by TV on the Radio is pretty much unlistenable on this system. Other music is fair to middling, its really only a decent system for 5.1 movies.




Kinda seems you answered your own question.

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Re: Mix not translating to Bose 5.1 Lifestyle system - how much do I worry? 2014/03/12 08:37:44 (permalink)
Get some bass traps for your listening room. And move the speakers away from the walls. And move the sub away from the corners. And...well the list can get quite long.
 
Regards,
Dan
 

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robotecho
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Re: Mix not translating to Bose 5.1 Lifestyle system - how much do I worry? 2014/03/12 09:17:01 (permalink)
Guitarhacker
Kinda seems you answered your own question.



It would be fair to say that in writing it out I did gain a certain level of clarity . Still, I am interested to hear from others if they persevere in this kind of situation, after all, most music sounds bearable on this system.

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robotecho
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Re: Mix not translating to Bose 5.1 Lifestyle system - how much do I worry? 2014/03/12 09:22:30 (permalink)
dcumpian
Get some bass traps for your listening room. And move the speakers away from the walls. And move the sub away from the corners. And...well the list can get quite long.
 
Regards,
Dan
 




Thanks Dan, I've got some very basic treatment in my studio and it seems to work OK. But I have limited jurisdiction in the lounge room, if you get my drift!  

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rumleymusic
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Re: Mix not translating to Bose 5.1 Lifestyle system - how much do I worry? 2014/03/12 12:35:24 (permalink) ☼ Best Answerby robotecho 2014/03/12 19:49:55
Bose speakers are too small to provide a wide frequency response.  As a result the sub tends to do the majority of the heavy lifting in the lows and lower mids.  It is a media system, not a very good music system.  
 
Are you able to adjust the amount of bass coming from your sub? I have noticed that most people tend to leave them up way too high.  

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wst3
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Re: Mix not translating to Bose 5.1 Lifestyle system - how much do I worry? 2014/03/12 13:36:41 (permalink)
Bose takes a lot of heat, especially in the professional audio space, for some of their designs.
 
What you need to keep in mind, as has already been pointed out, is that these systems are not designed for critical listening or any other professional application. They do make stuff that is, but most of their stuff is made to sound "cool". And if you like a hyped playback system then they hit the mark.
 
Some of my favorite bumper sticker slogans over the years include:
"no highs no lows? Must be Bose"
"Bose: Better Sound Through Marketing" ( a spin on their real slogan, "better sound through research")
"Buy Our S#$%^ Equipment"
"Bose, where great engineers go to die" - largely because Bose did not publish a lot of papers about their work.
 
To be fair, Dr. Bose brought some of this on himself... he presented a very arrogant persona, and he was not shy about using his attorneys if he felt that he, or his company was slighted.
 
I know a few folks that worked there, they enjoyed the challenges, and felt that they were fairly compensated. Those that got to know Dr. Bose thought he was a decent guy. And, if you are looking for a sound system that adds drama to your favorite movie or television show they are certainly a candidate.
 

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57Gregy
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Re: Mix not translating to Bose 5.1 Lifestyle system - how much do I worry? 2014/03/12 14:29:06 (permalink)
On my system (Denon surround sound receiver, Definitive Pro 100 speakers) when listening to music in Pro Logic, it doesn't sound very good.  Switching the receiver to 5 channel stereo, it sounds great.
Can you change the surround mode on the Bose?
 

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Re: Mix not translating to Bose 5.1 Lifestyle system - how much do I worry? 2014/03/12 16:17:25 (permalink)
robotecho
dcumpian
Get some bass traps for your listening room. And move the speakers away from the walls. And move the sub away from the corners. And...well the list can get quite long.
 
Regards,
Dan
 




Thanks Dan, I've got some very basic treatment in my studio and it seems to work OK. But I have limited jurisdiction in the lounge room, if you get my drift!  




Ah, yes. Then you'll have to negotiate for a dedicated media room! Lol! Good luck!
 
Regards,
Dan
 

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robotecho
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Re: Mix not translating to Bose 5.1 Lifestyle system - how much do I worry? 2014/03/12 19:48:47 (permalink)
rumleymusic
Bose speakers are too small to provide a wide frequency response.  As a result the sub tends to do the majority of the heavy lifting in the lows and lower mids.  It is a media system, not a very good music system.  
 
Are you able to adjust the amount of bass coming from your sub? I have noticed that most people tend to leave them up way too high.  

 
You know, with all the ADAPTIQ equalisation hype, I've always just run through the setup like an idiot with the stupid microphone headset, and assumed it was the best possible sound, and never really dug into the options.
 
Turns out, of course you can turn down the bass! There's basic bass treble adjustment, I cut the bass by 50% and nudged the treble up a notch, and the sound is... fair. Not great, but about how I would expect it to sound on this sytem.
 
I'd just never thought about tweaking this system. What a completely obvious idea. Thanks so much.
 
bitflipper
There's a book called "Mastering Audio" by Bob Katz. Get a copy.

 
It keeps popping up in discussion, I'll definitely have a read.

wst3
Bose takes a lot of heat, especially in the professional audio space, for some of their designs.
 
What you need to keep in mind, as has already been pointed out, is that these systems are not designed for critical listening or any other professional application. They do make stuff that is, but most of their stuff is made to sound "cool". And if you like a hyped playback system then they hit the mark.

 
I bought the system 10 years ago with my eyes wide open to its limitations, but I was living in an inner city terrace house with very little space, and wanted an easy multi-zone solution. At the time Bose had the only real offering. I'm in a bigger place now and I'm considering my options, one thing is for sure, these systems hold their value very well.

57Gregy
On my system (Denon surround sound receiver, Definitive Pro 100 speakers) when listening to music in Pro Logic, it doesn't sound very good.  Switching the receiver to 5 channel stereo, it sounds great.
Can you change the surround mode on the Bose?
 

 
I'm going into it from my HTPC via optical, I had noticed previously that if I just ran analog stereo into it seemed to sound better. Both systems are probably trying to turn my music into a fully immersive 5.1 surround experience, and sucking at it.

dcumpian
 
Ah, yes. Then you'll have to negotiate for a dedicated media room! Lol! Good luck!

 
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batsbrew
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Re: Mix not translating to Bose 5.1 Lifestyle system - how much do I worry? 2014/03/13 10:30:10 (permalink)
i would worry.
 
LOL
 
well, the whole point of mixing, is to have a mix that translates everywhere, no?
if a particular set of speakers does not translate in your room correctly, then change them.
 
if your room is not tuned, then tune it.
 
it's just that simple.
 

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robotecho
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Re: Mix not translating to Bose 5.1 Lifestyle system - how much do I worry? 2014/03/13 18:25:08 (permalink)
batsbrew
i would worry.
 



 
I'm going to worry a bit... I've changed the eq on the Bose system so it no longer murders a significant amount of music, but I do suspect the complete lack of stereo sound staging and blurry mid-bottom end is revealing something important about the mix. 

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Jay Tee 4303
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Re: Mix not translating to Bose 5.1 Lifestyle system - how much do I worry? 2014/03/14 08:52:36 (permalink)
Stuff foam in the bass port.

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bitflipper
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Re: Mix not translating to Bose 5.1 Lifestyle system - how much do I worry? 2014/03/14 18:07:14 (permalink)
That's actually not a bad suggestion, Jay. It might just dampen that artificial boost. It won't compensate for the total lack of content below the port frequency, but it could at least soften the unnatural bump at 120 Hz. I'd use a pair of heavy wool socks rather than foam, though.


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robotecho
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Re: Mix not translating to Bose 5.1 Lifestyle system - how much do I worry? 2014/03/14 18:25:08 (permalink)
Will give it a try and report back...

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Re: Mix not translating to Bose 5.1 Lifestyle system - how much do I worry? 2014/03/14 19:10:16 (permalink)
I have a set of Bose computer speakers that sound like absolute crap most of the time, always with the low frequencies. They are unbelievably boomy. The biggest problem it have with them is watching movies - they add so much bass to the dialog that I often end up just turning them off and reaching for my ATH-M50's. Most music sounds crap on them - the boomy low end is especially annoying on acoustic guitar & vocal tracks.

I would recommend getting a VRM box as an additional reference. You can check your mix in cans through loads of speaker and room simulations. They're especially good at warning you about potential bass translation issues.

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Jeff Evans
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Re: Mix not translating to Bose 5.1 Lifestyle system - how much do I worry? 2014/03/14 19:21:27 (permalink)
Is there a way you could post the mix somewhere you are talking about.  It might be good to check it.  You could have too much bass in your mix and the bottom end might be out of control.  I don't think so but it might be good just to check it none the less.
 
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2014/03/14 20:38:49

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Jay Tee 4303
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Re: Mix not translating to Bose 5.1 Lifestyle system - how much do I worry? 2014/03/15 11:43:54 (permalink)
bitflipper
That's actually not a bad suggestion, Jay. It might just dampen that artificial boost. It won't compensate for the total lack of content below the port frequency, but it could at least soften the unnatural bump at 120 Hz. I'd use a pair of heavy wool socks rather than foam, though.


Wish I could take credit Bit,  but that Mixing Secret originated with Mike Senior. He suggests it exactly as you describe, not a fix, but to see better how the port unnaturally pumps the lows. And yep, sox gotta be better than foam. Course I'm already usin most of em for dust covers on my mics. Oh well...I'll just go barefoot, get some moonshine jugs with candles stuck in em, and see if I can draw some Nashville business. If all else fails, most of my clans from three counties well north o Raleigh, back to my roots, yeehaa!

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robotecho
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Re: Mix not translating to Bose 5.1 Lifestyle system - how much do I worry? 2014/03/16 20:59:33 (permalink)
Jeff Evans
Is there a way you could post the mix somewhere you are talking about.  It might be good to check it.  You could have too much bass in your mix and the bottom end might be out of control.  I don't think so but it might be good just to check it none the less.

 
Hi Jeff, my first reaction to this request was sheer terror. But on thinking about it, I have to get it out there sometime, and its a very generous offer to have some experienced ears take a listen to the mix, so I've posted an excerpt for you. Hopefully I've filtered off the sub bass so I don't think that's a problem, but there is quite a lot going on in low mids, and I do love reverb and delay. Since first posting I have pulled the resonant bass sound back to mono, and that seems to have focused it a lot more, but I do suspect it is problematic and would appreciate any feedback about the bass and the mix in general. Its a fairly rough mix but I am getting pretty serious about finalising it now.
 
Edit: Link to soundcloud
 
https://soundcloud.com/ro..cho/problembass/s-MeZ3D
 
post edited by robotecho - 2014/03/17 21:39:56

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robotecho
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Re: Mix not translating to Bose 5.1 Lifestyle system - how much do I worry? 2014/03/16 21:06:18 (permalink)
Jay Tee 4303
Stuff foam in the bass port.

bitflipper
That's actually not a bad suggestion, Jay. It might just dampen that artificial boost. It won't compensate for the total lack of content below the port frequency, but it could at least soften the unnatural bump at 120 Hz. I'd use a pair of heavy wool socks rather than foam, though.

 
This has greatly improved the sound, in fact I'm surprised how little I'm missing any of the bass its taken out, its just a bit clearer. The socks are now permanently integrated into the system, and a pair should probably ship in the box when you buy it.

sharke
I would recommend getting a VRM box as an additional reference. You can check your mix in cans through loads of speaker and room simulations. They're especially good at warning you about potential bass translation issues.


I've never heard of this before, will definitely look into it.

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Re: Mix not translating to Bose 5.1 Lifestyle system - how much do I worry? 2014/03/17 12:01:30 (permalink)
you should now be able to post links..... upload the song to soundcloud and post the link to it.
 
I got a warning when I tried to open that link you posted. Kinda rather not try it.... IUKWIM

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#24
robotecho
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Re: Mix not translating to Bose 5.1 Lifestyle system - how much do I worry? 2014/03/17 18:02:12 (permalink)
Guitarhacker
you should now be able to post links..... upload the song to soundcloud and post the link to it.
 
I got a warning when I tried to open that link you posted. Kinda rather not try it.... IUKWIM




Its a wav file... your anti-virus is paranoid! OK, I'll work something out. I have a soundcloud account, but that's public and attached to this project so I don't want to upload anything to it. I'll try and set up a new account or something.
 
Edit: Done
post edited by robotecho - 2014/03/17 21:40:46

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#25
robotecho
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Re: Mix not translating to Bose 5.1 Lifestyle system - how much do I worry? 2014/03/17 21:44:42 (permalink)
Here's a link to the excerpt on Soundcloud:
 
https://soundcloud.com/ro6otecho/problembass/s-MeZ3D
 
Notes from above:  I've filtered off the sub bass so I don't think that's a problem, but there is quite a lot going on in low mids, and I do love reverb and delay. Since first posting I have pulled the resonant bass sound back to mono, and that seems to have focused it a lot more, but I do suspect it is problematic and would appreciate any feedback about the bass and the mix in general. Its a fairly rough mix but I am getting pretty serious about finalising it now.

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#26
Jeff Evans
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Re: Mix not translating to Bose 5.1 Lifestyle system - how much do I worry? 2014/03/18 00:29:55 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby robotecho 2014/03/18 01:13:00
Rob the mix sounds good on my system and although yes there is that sustained low end it is not out of control or anything like that. It is not making my speakers move unnecessarily etc.. The kick also sounds OK. The mix is pretty good overall actually. The mix is making my VU meters move in a slightly funny way but nothing serious. I think that is just the nature of the music. So the problem is not in your mix I dont think, it is in the way the Bose system is reproducing it. It sounds OK on my small mono speaker too and that is always a good sign. Nice cool groove too, I like it.
 
 

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#27
robotecho
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Re: Mix not translating to Bose 5.1 Lifestyle system - how much do I worry? 2014/03/18 01:20:50 (permalink)
Jeff thanks so much for taking the time to have a listen and provide some feedback. Its very helpful to get some closure on this issue, and extremely helpful to get some good feedback on the work in general from someone with more experience. I've been very positive about this project but the gremlins have crept in during the last few weeks and I've really been second guessing myself a lot. I don't think you can do this work in a vacuum. Thanks again.

Win 10 64bit, Core i7 3.6GHz, 32GB RAM | Sonar Platinum | NI Komplete 9 | Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 | Kenwood KA-87 | Adelaide Speakers Firesprite Monitors | Roland A-800PRO Controller | Moog Sub Phatty | Ibanez RG-470 Guitar | Gretsch G5125 | Ibanez Roadster II RB-850 Bass | Squire Jaguar Vintage Modified Bass | Vox AC15VR | Orange Micro Terror
#28
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